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Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:38:48 -0400
Message-ID: <n2h1f1080831005060638zc286539flacb8a97329b564ea@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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It's not so much that I've decided that {lo se djica} is a nu as that if it
were anything else a nu would be implied, in the way I see it.
Put another way, assuming {ko'a} to not be abstract, {mi djica ko'a} to me
IS {mi djica tu'a ko'a} because to me there is always an underlying event,
proposition, etc. involved in "wanting a thing". Wording it in terms of
"logical sense" was probably not the best way to do it, and yet in my mind
that's really what's going on: any "wanting of a thing" logically entails
"wanting something to do with a thing" to me. Do you disagree?

By the way, it would be nice if there were a better way to make generic
examples of these kinds of things. What we have is already probably better
than English, but it would be nice if there was a pro-sumti that you could
use to refer to a generic non-abstract sumti or a generic abstract sumti
unambiguously and without having to define everything initially every time.
(Other generic things would also be nice, this is just the example that pop=
s
up in this context.)

mu'o mi'e latros.
2010/5/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > As for that way of defining tolcaudji, that's defined with a {nu}, whic=
h
> is
> > pretty much what I was talking about. That makes perfect logical sense,
> > whereas I don't honestly see {mi djica ko'a} for a concrete {ko'a} maki=
ng
> as
> > much sense as {mi djica tu'a ko'a} does.
>
> But that's only because you have already decided that lo se djica has
> to be a nu.
>
> If "ko'a broda ko'e" makes sense for some brivla, it shouldn't make
> any difference if that brivla is a gismu or a lujvo.
>
> If the brivla "tolcaudji" makes perfect logical sense, then a gismu
> with the same meaning should also make perfect logical sense.
>
> > As for {nelci} et al., I guess it depends on what you really want. I kn=
ow
> I
> > wouldn't like it if {mi nelci ko'a} meant that {ko'a} had to be abstrac=
t,
> > but then I do like it that {mi djica ko'a} means that {ko'a} has to be
> > abstract.
>
> That's fine, of course, we all have our personal likes and dislikes.
> What I was objecting to is saying that an ordinary object as the x2 of
> djica wouldn't make "logical sense". To me it's the restriction that
> seems arbitrary and pointless.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>

--=20
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It&#39;s not so much that I&#39;ve decided that {lo se djica} is a nu as th=
at if it were anything else a nu would be implied, in the way I see it. <br=
>Put another way, assuming {ko&#39;a} to not be abstract, {mi djica ko&#39;=
a} to me IS {mi djica tu&#39;a ko&#39;a} because to me there is always an u=
nderlying event, proposition, etc. involved in &quot;wanting a thing&quot;.=
 Wording it in terms of &quot;logical sense&quot; was probably not the best=
 way to do it, and yet in my mind that&#39;s really what&#39;s going on: an=
y &quot;wanting of a thing&quot; logically entails &quot;wanting something =
to do with a thing&quot; to me. Do you disagree? <br>
<br>By the way, it would be nice if there were a better way to make generic=
 examples of these kinds of things. What we have is already probably better=
 than English, but it would be nice if there was a pro-sumti that you could=
 use to refer to a generic non-abstract sumti or a generic abstract sumti u=
nambiguously and without having to define everything initially every time. =
(Other generic things would also be nice, this is just the example that pop=
s up in this context.)<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e latros.<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/5/5 Jorge =
Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jj=
llambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Ian Johnson &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As for that way of defining tolcaudji, that&#39;s defined with a {nu},=
 which is<br>
&gt; pretty much what I was talking about. That makes perfect logical sense=
,<br>
&gt; whereas I don&#39;t honestly see {mi djica ko&#39;a} for a concrete {k=
o&#39;a} making as<br>
&gt; much sense as {mi djica tu&#39;a ko&#39;a} does.<br>
<br>
</div>But that&#39;s only because you have already decided that lo se djica=
 has<br>
to be a nu.<br>
<br>
If &quot;ko&#39;a broda ko&#39;e&quot; makes sense for some brivla, it shou=
ldn&#39;t make<br>
any difference if that brivla is a gismu or a lujvo.<br>
<br>
If the brivla &quot;tolcaudji&quot; makes perfect logical sense, then a gis=
mu<br>
with the same meaning should also make perfect logical sense.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; As for {nelci} et al., I guess it depends on what you really want. I k=
now I<br>
&gt; wouldn&#39;t like it if {mi nelci ko&#39;a} meant that {ko&#39;a} had =
to be abstract,<br>
&gt; but then I do like it that {mi djica ko&#39;a} means that {ko&#39;a} h=
as to be<br>
&gt; abstract.<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s fine, of course, we all have our personal likes and dislik=
es.<br>
What I was objecting to is saying that an ordinary object as the x2 of<br>
djica wouldn&#39;t make &quot;logical sense&quot;. To me it&#39;s the restr=
iction that<br>
seems arbitrary and pointless.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<br>
--<br>
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nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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