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Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 12:32:13 -0400
Message-ID: <r2j1f1080831005060932l4e23f59aq5aa5d06e57e383f9@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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Semantic is a better word, you're right. When semantics gets somehow
"nontrivial" (when something can't really happen without something else
happening, as with {djica} or {viska}) I think I get mixed up between
semantics and logic to some extent.

As for those options, I guess that's better than having to define everythin=
g
initially. One thing that's lacking of course is a thing like with the ko'a
series and the broda series, which is an easy way to define a bunch of
generic things. {xi} doesn't really count, in my opinion.

Hmm...a relevant question:
.i ko'a goi lo fasnu .i ko'e goi lo fasnu

Does {ko'a du ko'e} have a defined truth value now? If so, what is it? (I
suspect that it doesn't have a truth value yet.)

mu'o mi'e latros.
2010/5/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Wording it in terms of
> > "logical sense" was probably not the best way to do it, and yet in my
> mind
> > that's really what's going on: any "wanting of a thing" logically entai=
ls
> > "wanting something to do with a thing" to me. Do you disagree?
>
> I would disagree with the "logically entails" part, yes. There is no
> logical inference rule that takes you form "mi djica ko'a" to "mi
> djica lo nu ko'a co'e". I wouldn't have much problem with
> "semantically entails".
>
> Similarly, "mi viska ko'a" semantically entails "mi viska lo nu ko'a
> co'e".  You can't want something without at the same time wanting
> something about it, and you can't see something without at the same
> time seeing something about it. But this is semantics, not logic.
>
> > By the way, it would be nice if there were a better way to make generic
> > examples of these kinds of things. What we have is already probably
> better
> > than English, but it would be nice if there was a pro-sumti that you
> could
> > use to refer to a generic non-abstract sumti or a generic abstract sumt=
i
> > unambiguously and without having to define everything initially every
> time.
> > (Other generic things would also be nice, this is just the example that
> pops
> > up in this context.)
>
> You can say "lo dacti", "lo fasnu", etc. Personally, I see a more
> significant difference between lo fatci and lo fasnu than between lo
> fasnu and lo dacti.
>
> lo fatci, lo namcu, lo se ckaji are true abstractions, lo fasnu is
> only an abstraction in the sense that lojban decided to call selma'o
> NU "abstractors", but other than that there is nothing too abstract
> about lo fasnu.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
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>
>

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Semantic is a better word, you&#39;re right. When semantics gets somehow &q=
uot;nontrivial&quot; (when something can&#39;t really happen without someth=
ing else happening, as with {djica} or {viska}) I think I get mixed up betw=
een semantics and logic to some extent.<br>
<br>As for those options, I guess that&#39;s better than having to define e=
verything initially. One thing that&#39;s lacking of course is a thing like=
 with the ko&#39;a series and the broda series, which is an easy way to def=
ine a bunch of generic things. {xi} doesn&#39;t really count, in my opinion=
. <br>
<br>Hmm...a relevant question:<br>.i ko&#39;a goi lo fasnu .i ko&#39;e goi =
lo fasnu <br><br>Does {ko&#39;a du ko&#39;e} have a defined truth value now=
? If so, what is it? (I suspect that it doesn&#39;t have a truth value yet.=
)<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e latros.<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/5/6 Jorge =
Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jj=
llambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Ian Johnson &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt; Wording it in terms of<br>
&gt; &quot;logical sense&quot; was probably not the best way to do it, and =
yet in my mind<br>
&gt; that&#39;s really what&#39;s going on: any &quot;wanting of a thing&qu=
ot; logically entails<br>
&gt; &quot;wanting something to do with a thing&quot; to me. Do you disagre=
e?<br>
<br>
</div>I would disagree with the &quot;logically entails&quot; part, yes. Th=
ere is no<br>
logical inference rule that takes you form &quot;mi djica ko&#39;a&quot; to=
 &quot;mi<br>
djica lo nu ko&#39;a co&#39;e&quot;. I wouldn&#39;t have much problem with<=
br>
&quot;semantically entails&quot;.<br>
<br>
Similarly, &quot;mi viska ko&#39;a&quot; semantically entails &quot;mi visk=
a lo nu ko&#39;a<br>
co&#39;e&quot;. =A0You can&#39;t want something without at the same time wa=
nting<br>
something about it, and you can&#39;t see something without at the same<br>
time seeing something about it. But this is semantics, not logic.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; By the way, it would be nice if there were a better way to make generi=
c<br>
&gt; examples of these kinds of things. What we have is already probably be=
tter<br>
&gt; than English, but it would be nice if there was a pro-sumti that you c=
ould<br>
&gt; use to refer to a generic non-abstract sumti or a generic abstract sum=
ti<br>
&gt; unambiguously and without having to define everything initially every =
time.<br>
&gt; (Other generic things would also be nice, this is just the example tha=
t pops<br>
&gt; up in this context.)<br>
<br>
</div>You can say &quot;lo dacti&quot;, &quot;lo fasnu&quot;, etc. Personal=
ly, I see a more<br>
significant difference between lo fatci and lo fasnu than between lo<br>
fasnu and lo dacti.<br>
<br>
lo fatci, lo namcu, lo se ckaji are true abstractions, lo fasnu is<br>
only an abstraction in the sense that lojban decided to call selma&#39;o<br=
>
NU &quot;abstractors&quot;, but other than that there is nothing too abstra=
ct<br>
about lo fasnu.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<br>
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nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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