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Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:31:32 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fair point.  I'm not arguing that the two uses of "understand" in english
> should have the same lojban word.  But there *should* be a way of
> expressing the second use (i.e. comprehension).  And since {djuno} is
> already doing {jimpe}'s job and more, why would we double up on the first
> meaning while the second meaning goes gismu-less?  (I'm assuming that the=
re
> isn't a gismu for "x1 comprehends subject x2".  {slabu} is close I guess,
> but still doesn't cut the mustard, I think).
>
> Maybe it just needs a lujvo like {smuju'o} or something.
>
This is precisely why I take my view regarding {zo'e jimpe fi zo'e}.

> On May 7, 2010 2:56 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> > I really don't like tha...
> "jimpe" does mean "understand that ...", it just doesn't cover all the
> meanings of "understand", at least if we take the gi'uste definition
> seriously.
>
>
> > It seems like the concept of
> > conprehending a thing would be one of those most basic concepts th...
> Right, but you do agree that understanding some thing is not the same
> as understanding some facts about the thing, right?
>
> "Understanding a language" can have two meanings, the type of
> understanding of utterances in the language that a speaker of the
> language has (knowing how to use the language), and the type of
> understanding that a linguist has (knowing many facts about the
> language and how those facts relate to one another). The second is the
> one expressed by "jimpe fi lo bangu". This is tied with the "know
> that" vs. "know how to" distinction.
>
> If you understand that nouns are not inflected in Chinese, then "do
> jimpe da lo jugbau", even if you don't understand Chinese.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> ...
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>



--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--=20
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Luke Bergen <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com">lukeabergen@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); paddin=
g-left: 1ex;">
<p>Fair point. =A0I&#39;m not arguing that the two uses of &quot;understand=
&quot; in english should have the same lojban word. =A0But there <i>should<=
/i>=A0be a way of expressing the second use (i.e. comprehension). =A0And si=
nce {djuno} is already doing {jimpe}&#39;s job and more, why would we doubl=
e up on the first meaning while the second meaning goes gismu-less? =A0(I&#=
39;m assuming that there isn&#39;t a gismu for &quot;x1 comprehends subject=
 x2&quot;. =A0{slabu} is close I guess, but still doesn&#39;t cut the musta=
rd, I think). =A0</p>

<p>Maybe it just needs a lujvo like {smuju&#39;o} or something.</p></blockq=
uote><div>This is precisely why I take my view regarding {zo&#39;e jimpe fi=
 zo&#39;e}.=A0 <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left=
: 1ex;">
<p></p>
<p></p><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"im">On May 7, 2010 2:56 PM, =
&quot;Jorge Llamb=EDas&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><p><font c=
olor=3D"#500050"><div class=3D"im">
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Luke Bergen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lukeaberg=
en@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lukeabergen@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv>

&gt; I really don&#39;t like tha...</font></p><div class=3D"im">&quot;jimpe=
&quot; does mean &quot;understand that ...&quot;, it just doesn&#39;t cover=
 all the<br>
meanings of &quot;understand&quot;, at least if we take the gi&#39;uste def=
inition<br>
seriously.<br>
</div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><div class=3D"im"><br>&gt; It seems like t=
he concept of<br></div>&gt; conprehending a thing would be one of those mos=
t basic concepts th...</font></p><div class=3D"im">Right, but you do agree =
that understanding some thing is not the same<br>



as understanding some facts about the thing, right?<br>
<br>
&quot;Understanding a language&quot; can have two meanings, the type of<br>
understanding of utterances in the language that a speaker of the<br>
language has (knowing how to use the language), and the type of<br>
understanding that a linguist has (knowing many facts about the<br>
language and how those facts relate to one another). The second is the<br>
one expressed by &quot;jimpe fi lo bangu&quot;. This is tied with the &quot=
;know<br>
that&quot; vs. &quot;know how to&quot; distinction.<br>
<br>
If you understand that nouns are not inflected in Chinese, then &quot;do<br=
>
jimpe da lo jugbau&quot;, even if you don&#39;t understand Chinese.<br>
<p><font color=3D"#500050"><br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br><br>-- </font></=
p></div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><div class=3D"im">You received this mess=
age because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &quot;Lojban Beginners&=
quot; group.<br>
</div>...</font></p>

</blockquote><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><p></p>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.a&#39;o.e&#39;e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu<br>=
<br>

<p></p>

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/>
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