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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] sei vs to
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
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Additionally, I just thought of a need for se'u...   example:  lu ko'a plise
sei mi pensi se'u citka.  Amirite?

On May 11, 2010 10:25 PM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <
lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

tijlan wrote:
>
> {sei} and {to}... When should we use which? What is the difference between
a discu...
"to" is a normal parenthetical, and can be used pretty much anywhere for any
purpose that you would use a parenthetical in English or another language.
 You can talk about anything in a to parenthetical.

sei is specifically for metalinguistic discourse about the sentence or text.
 So in addition to any grammatical hooks that it provides, it has a semantic
implication that to does not have.  It was specifically added to the
language because of certain textual features in complex English text that
didn't have a clearly corresponding structure in Lojban, but was later
expanded to allow for on-the-fly creation of novel discursives and
attitudinals (members of UI), in the same way that fi'o is used to allow
on-the-fly creation of novel sumti tcita/modal tags (members of BAI), from a
corresponding bridi.

The original usages of sei were
a)embedded in quoted text, the identification of the speaker, and any
supplemental information included therewith ("Think Tom Swiftie adverbs",
lojbab said self-referentially, "and look at this quote for such an English
example".
(You will find the original use of sei for this purpose in Athelstan''s 1990
translation of Saki's "The Open Window", somewhere in the Lojban texts page,
which IIRC has lots of conversation as the various speakers walk down the
hall, open windows, look out through them, all expressed in comma delimited
phrases embedded within the quotes in the English original.)
b) The translation of self-referential paradoxes, of the "This sentence is
false" variety, non-paradoxically by jumping to a new metalinguistics level
inside the sei construct.
dei jetnu sei jitfa

The times when you need a se'u more or less correspond to the times when you
need a fe'u on the end of a fi'o - generally if you've opened a complex
multilevel structure inside the construct that you wish to make sure is
terminated so it doesn't suck up something accidentally from the main bridi
level.  This most commonly occurs when there are abstraction sumti in the
construct.  You can probably end these with kei, but to be sure, use
se'u/fe'u.

lojbab
-- 
Bob LeChevalier    lojbab@lojban.org    www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.



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<p>Additionally, I just thought of a need for se&#39;u...=A0=A0 example:=A0=
 lu ko&#39;a plise sei mi pensi se&#39;u citka.=A0 Amirite?</p>
<p><blockquote type=3D"cite">On May 11, 2010 10:25 PM, &quot;Bob LeChevalie=
r, President and Founder - LLG&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.or=
g">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><p><font color=3D"#500050">tijla=
n wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; {sei} and {to}... When should we use which? What is the differ=
ence between a discu...</font></p>
&quot;to&quot; is a normal parenthetical, and can be used pretty much anywh=
ere for any purpose that you would use a parenthetical in English or anothe=
r language. =A0You can talk about anything in a to parenthetical.<br>
<br>
sei is specifically for metalinguistic discourse about the sentence or text=
. =A0So in addition to any grammatical hooks that it provides, it has a sem=
antic implication that to does not have. =A0It was specifically added to th=
e language because of certain textual features in complex English text that=
 didn&#39;t have a clearly corresponding structure in Lojban, but was later=
 expanded to allow for on-the-fly creation of novel discursives and attitud=
inals (members of UI), in the same way that fi&#39;o is used to allow on-th=
e-fly creation of novel sumti tcita/modal tags (members of BAI), from a cor=
responding bridi.<br>

<br>
The original usages of sei were<br>
a)embedded in quoted text, the identification of the speaker, and any suppl=
emental information included therewith (&quot;Think Tom Swiftie adverbs&quo=
t;, lojbab said self-referentially, &quot;and look at this quote for such a=
n English example&quot;.<br>

(You will find the original use of sei for this purpose in Athelstan&#39;&#=
39;s 1990 translation of Saki&#39;s &quot;The Open Window&quot;, somewhere =
in the Lojban texts page, which IIRC has lots of conversation as the variou=
s speakers walk down the hall, open windows, look out through them, all exp=
ressed in comma delimited phrases embedded within the quotes in the English=
 original.)<br>

b) The translation of self-referential paradoxes, of the &quot;This sentenc=
e is false&quot; variety, non-paradoxically by jumping to a new metalinguis=
tics level inside the sei construct.<br>
dei jetnu sei jitfa<br>
<br>
The times when you need a se&#39;u more or less correspond to the times whe=
n you need a fe&#39;u on the end of a fi&#39;o - generally if you&#39;ve op=
ened a complex multilevel structure inside the construct that you wish to m=
ake sure is terminated so it doesn&#39;t suck up something accidentally fro=
m the main bridi level. =A0This most commonly occurs when there are abstrac=
tion sumti in the construct. =A0You can probably end these with kei, but to=
 be sure, use se&#39;u/fe&#39;u.<br>

<br>
lojbab<br><font color=3D"#888888">
-- <br>
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">lojbab@lojban.org</a> =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D=
"_blank">www.lojban.org</a><br>
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.</font><p><font colo=
r=3D"#500050"><br><br>-- <br>You received this message because you are subs=
cribed to the Google Groups &quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; g...</font></p>
</blockquote></p>

<p></p>

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