Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDwh-0005ZB-Kh; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:36:48 -0700 Received: by pxi13 with SMTP id 13sf2167596pxi.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=FMvUgrqszXn/1A1j4VXj0FgmP7cH83IsrSlXAyY7aA4=; b=TYWFXDe/NmOpDwD5RlulrWZjQDNiWpXm7WuGoyFhnNs8rBcydp+1a9VColyeiI7oBD kGrGSg1h3YTq/ud8Th9behqlStmEByfBKK+lkmBDMegH3cH5zbNIfsCGJHy+YVA2YRzW 5W/tVK6PNAj1BU6Ywz2kWj8pMSSxK+9Pqfsnc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=GCwCR8/OST9ffkmbPUxdysd7AsVHhh8ZjTPEs6aIs5KF/bAi1myLQNqxDFa08+KQer NZYT4+AouXwOC3aQCF3ApwFId3eq75NiRBkEFBNlUvupkWL/xCrtAw6YTdzpsN+RWqiR ZHVAeVdFII5CcYxTpH6UnkbqbFK6e6zUnqRww= Received: by 10.142.118.11 with SMTP id q11mr320907wfc.9.1278444306217; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.21.24 with SMTP id y24ls1817900wfi.1.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.211.5 with SMTP id j5mr1089690wfg.6.1278444305289; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.211.5 with SMTP id j5mr1089689wfg.6.1278444305249; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id i10si5149404wfa.5.2010.07.06.12.25.05; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDlQ-0006AD-2w for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:25:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:25:04 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo do ckiku ma zvati Message-ID: <20100706192503.GB1443@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Length: 1426 On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:44:06AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote: > I think starting out with elidable terminators not elided would probably be > confusing to beginners. > > {lo gerku cu jersi lo ractu} > (a) dog (begin selbri) chase (a) rabbit > > vs > > {lo gerku ku cu jersi lo ractu ku vau} > (a) dog (end sumti) (begin selbri) chase (a) rabbit (end sumti) (end bridi) > > Not eliding those terminators makes even the simplest statements seem > horribly complicated. Exactly. The second version is *horrible* for beginners, IMO. Even without the unnecessary {cu}. It just adds huge complexity and verbosity for no useful gain. The *vast* majority of beginner sentences need exactly one {cu}, and no other terminators. Teaching them in that context is pointless. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.