Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWKP7-0002TF-KE; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:35 -0700 Received: by qwi2 with SMTP id 2sf4093150qwi.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2c0pDkh/xJxte7dUXizehvySAwPiZUib44XugdVgkCM=; b=onutfk+QQyLKXNE4xyFczUNTeat5Vj3GTHrLtABkTeEkw2SUzawrK4LYZO6FHPnPUK W9lyZWxCVf6Ud30dng9fVUlcRUvgnh6C56/fAGuOk7KUCKhBY8YMGspRzcAYmKWe2Mdt 3lUBekGzAGYkVcBaP64vGHB2XTQGvu+DA5jy8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=MTFptVnZapwRfKgYVROGLXFfvmqFJIf5HVslTqkYEky004zltMz+nnqbI5BOk/yPc6 yQKChvwb+EP3hMlAbNFmWPIqB04ZCrT70Gu/gr1gONUXlbHRVLuFcaeHrE1EXPp+Zbep zK3v6gKfXJjfrqLu/f7M2gKpkKianXdp7Uk58= Received: by 10.229.2.162 with SMTP id 34mr668439qcj.37.1278469817816; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.179.165 with SMTP id bq37ls3946055qcb.3.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.221.136 with SMTP id ic8mr437772qcb.15.1278469810248; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.221.136 with SMTP id ic8mr437771qcb.15.1278469810190; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f50.google.com (mail-vw0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x40si3608849qce.7.2010.07.06.19.30.08; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.50; Received: by vws13 with SMTP id 13so5217224vws.37 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.238.82 with SMTP id kr18mr1359000qcb.276.1278469807968; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.217.140 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100707002416.GA25062@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> <20100706193633.GE1443@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706194349.GE31169@alice.local> <20100707002416.GA25062@sdf.lonestar.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 22:30:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64b03b6c293e5048ac2f20c Content-Length: 10934 --0016e64b03b6c293e5048ac2f20c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My two cents to all of this: I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the community after going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I first came, but I was close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe up to chapter 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentences together in a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basically, until I felt comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions that I thought I should join the IRC and mailing lists. So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like this in the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I think putting off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, but they were one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other hand, I think that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so using terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is a horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences get horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very very rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful having to do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, that means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were even remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be great to teach it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to construct a relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a discussion of an actual topic. So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When you get to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o}. Around the time when you start needing two terminators (probably around the time that you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster way that is usually used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until you run into three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and then attempt to synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti inside abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do too many things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts with it will learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think; by contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if they are the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be confusion so much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {cu} causing inefficiency). This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it ASAP" hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pretty good here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data. *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix it, sorry. mu'oi mi'e latros. On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience wrote: > de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actually know > how > > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo'e zo'e} (I have > actually > > seen stuff like this). > .skamyxatra > > "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct. (It's > unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your sole > objection > to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) "{cu}" means "the {bridi}'s > main > {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything before it, > rather than termination being the primary concept and the main {selbri} > aspect > secondary. The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{cu}" is > that it > must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "term" can > be a > {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, a > {sumti} > tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA KU. > > mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > > -- > lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e64b03b6c293e5048ac2f20c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My two cents to all of this:
I'm newish but relatively comfortable. = I came into the community after going through LFB (I can't guarantee I = was done when I first came, but I was close). I worked some of the exercise= s in the chapters (maybe up to chapter 7 or so) but eventually I found myse= lf trying to hack sentences together in a nonlinear fashion, and so I used = it as a reference basically, until I felt comfortable enough and had suffic= iently technical questions that I thought I should join the IRC and mailing= lists.

So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like= this in the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I th= ink putting off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, = but they were one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other = hand, I think that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so u= sing terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is a = horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences get horri= bly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very very rarely= actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful having to do w= ith a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard circum= stance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, that means tha= t it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were even remotely commo= n circumstances when you needed it, it would be great to teach it, but with= {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to construct a relevant exam= ple, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a discussion of an actua= l topic.

So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When you = get to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o= }. Around the time when you start needing two terminators (probably around = the time that you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster wa= y that is usually used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait unti= l you run into three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and th= en attempt to synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti ins= ide abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do = too many things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts wit= h it will learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think;= by contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if the= y are the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be conf= usion so much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {= cu} causing inefficiency).

This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it A= SAP" hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pre= tty good here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data.

*I th= ink that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix it, sorry.

mu'oi mi'e latros.
On = Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com> wro= te:
de'i li 06 pi= 'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actually= know how
> to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo= 9;e zo'e} (I have actually
> seen stuff like this).
.skamyxatra

"{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct. =A0(= It's
unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your sole o= bjection
to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) =A0"{cu}" means &qu= ot;the {bridi}'s main
{selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything befor= e it,
rather than termination being the primary concept and the main {selbri} asp= ect
secondary. =A0The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{cu}&= quot; is that it
must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "term&q= uot; can be a
{sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, a {sumti= }
tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA KU.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki

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