Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ot30P-0005tW-6j; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:56 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf384830pwi.16 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=kGRMB2XK4luEo5ntOGJznLT9sv82TspphTuQHrqaMiY=; b=NDlUWs0+3rPlOO9tKYU4NQLKjUOyh6umupAEiR/iLJb2AV3e3+wX78h1iJSw6/IRnQ lFOy06oA71Ad/w2D7LlWccwzkT5LlxKEFqW5E+si/I+gVNsuDscYOmVjPrbzvBqE9+wC kG9e3FP2R9rgy2z+mHG7F64+O0kG6Fd6Tk4ss= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; b=Ew510X3+v8pASGuIXmqgtiqiCML8aoqWOYhAbmsulSjbydJIUqnUHMxLe7A1W2+Do7 9aOF8YMlpmsgg56gNyWGQEVfW15y7c5obX+lDdgkuDyrusEbj++fg+3nfgUQh3P3cMDk yTzgGBCghi1rxk7tIkgMOzq6MxmPMnfG1cRxY= Received: by 10.142.63.4 with SMTP id l4mr118343wfa.46.1283884463585; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.117.2 with SMTP id p2ls636816wfc.1.p; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1042429wfg.9.1283884462743; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.213.3 with SMTP id l3mr1042426wfg.9.1283884462720; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k8si5525330wfa.6.2010.09.07.11.34.22; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=/KCc9ZTup0XSKI57k8aYt/h16g79E72UY6I+xjVNono= c=1 sm=0 a=2T2tPJluxxYA:10 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=atMCMYhc_XAeo4EvtTsA:9 a=cQ-qsI0jeg61eOAp9x8A:7 a=B8t_agNP0Egj559PTgYNUW08BCoA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=nqw8zZIRNbMA:10 a=QXcm860TS2MA:10 a=dxBpO5_FDU0A:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:42381] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id D9/AE-09032-DA5868C4; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:34:21 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E11230C9 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:34:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] About reading speed of lojban text. Compared with natlang's text. Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:34:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <59ca95ff-dab4-4899-97b6-d26dd2352de5@l20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <59ca95ff-dab4-4899-97b6-d26dd2352de5@l20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201009071434.19441.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Length: 2226 On Monday 06 September 2010 15:50:05 spermwhale.warrior wrote: > Hi everyone ! > I'm not fluent in lojban at all, but I like study its linguistic > properties. > I wondered something ... With such an high syllables's rate (I ask the > rather fluent speakers/writers among us), comparing two short text, > with typical constructs we use every day, such as : comparatives, > conditionnals, vocatives, citations from someone else, simples logical > links between otherwise independent sentences. > One in lojban ... and one in english, or any langage you are the most > fluent in. > The two text written with the same look towards semantic details, > except when (whatever is considered as) evidents inferences from > context can be made. > > My question is the following : are you able, to read the lojban piece > of text speedier than or as speedily as the chosen natlang piece of > text ? > > Or not ? > > Does lojban's preciseness and accuracy towards semantic content of its > constructs make it inherently long-winded ? I estimate that Lojban text is about 1.2 times as long as corresponding=20 English text, mainly because some extra phonemes, syllables, and words are= =20 necessary for unambiguous parsing. I managed to translate "Il =E9tait un pe= tit=20 navire" (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dle+cmalu+bloti)= =20 without having to squeeze in another syllable. Lojban is pro-drop and even= =20 tense-drop, which somewhat balances the need for extra sounds. > ps: I am fluent only in French, and as you know French guys are the > worst students in foreign languages of the EU. If you wince in reading > me, please remember it ! You may be interested in the French Lojban list. Send an email to=20 lojban-fr-request@lojban.org to subscribe. Pierre --=20 Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.