Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCz6JnkBBoEwzA6BQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Ot1qE-0004NA-53; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:20:22 -0700
Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6sf2077323vws.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received
         :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received
         :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=qdvi3EMHVldsRNiv6TqOavkFYT2tD7eUzrPqRZ5mzMA=;
        b=qn1YfymTLAZcJS1G/1UBi5+G8OPcPVaxKrCboRv1GFQqBON2W1SMDwbLnVdv8eOZEn
         NmSdmC+dk+Xfy1REVlKLoBQBB7mUFFr69ssOPXnKH7JShiVTp5PfjbQ6jEayBGkhRgBZ
         Kb1z+3Y9VBefpHqnJs9MGisnJPaq2QA7nXtQw=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        b=xJIWfqXujiH0eQ5a5LxouggmDJxPxxOsUkXeu/unsMbqWzGkOTLUYzOomb9y8IVYn8
         7OV2LZVVXLXL4DNVEM3gRWFBG3hUDe8QcScTWuoeUxgciTwkx97rDEF4fwO57bPx06go
         JnkHh06HGNe8o4jcv63nz+IxyJX2g66rMRX48=
Received: by 10.220.125.37 with SMTP id w37mr149663vcr.46.1283879987655;
        Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:19:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.111.137 with SMTP id s9ls1303354vcp.1.p; Tue, 07 Sep 2010
 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.220.194.196 with SMTP id dz4mr1704691vcb.1.1283879985935;
        Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.220.194.196 with SMTP id dz4mr1704689vcb.1.1283879985880;
        Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com (mail-qw0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j20si658124vcn.10.2010.09.07.10.19.44;
        Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.41;
Received: by qwf7 with SMTP id 7so5065861qwf.28
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.60.131 with SMTP id p3mr733715qah.205.1283879984378; Tue,
 07 Sep 2010 10:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.229.38.75 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <59ca95ff-dab4-4899-97b6-d26dd2352de5@l20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
References: <59ca95ff-dab4-4899-97b6-d26dd2352de5@l20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:19:44 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTinegPRWUBCYnAj2d6MRaGxmzd6926bANi-ByzhZ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] About reading speed of lojban text. Compared
 with natlang's text.
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ca8666734f6048fae9a6e
Content-Length: 5506

--0015175ca8666734f6048fae9a6e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 3:50 PM, spermwhale.warrior <
guerrier.cachalot@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone !
> I'm not fluent in lojban at all, but I like study its linguistic
> properties.
> I wondered something ... With such an high syllables's rate (I ask the
> rather fluent speakers/writers among us), comparing two short text,
> with typical constructs we use every day, such as : comparatives,
> conditionnals, vocatives, citations from someone else, simples logical
> links between otherwise independent sentences.
> One in lojban ... and one in english, or any langage you are the most
> fluent in.
> The two text written with the same look towards semantic details,
> except when (whatever is considered as) evidents inferences from
> context can be made.
>
> My question is the following : are you able, to read the lojban piece
> of text speedier than or as speedily as the chosen natlang piece of
> text ?
>
> Or not ?
>
> Does lojban's preciseness and accuracy towards semantic content of its
> constructs make it inherently long-winded ?
>
> ps: I am fluent only in French, and as you know French guys are the
> worst students in foreign languages of the EU. If you wince in reading
> me, please remember it !
>
> Thank you, Mehdi
>
  In general, lojban translations of English sentences into lojban that
carry the same amount of semantic information have about twice as many
syllables as the English.  (But not always -- take for example the song from
the musical Rent  called "Five Hundred Twenty-Five Thousand Six Hundred
Minutes".  In lojban it's mentu li muremuxanono -- 13 syllables in English,
9 in lojban)  On the other hand, translating from  lojban to English ALSO
adds syllables in general.  And the same is true, in general, for any
translation of one language to another. Idioms and ways of speaking have
been crafted in one language specifically because those languages make it
easier to say that particular thing, which may not be true for a different
langauge.
                   --gejyspa

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--0015175ca8666734f6048fae9a6e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 3:50 PM, spermwhale.warri=
or <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guerrier.cachalot@gmail.com">gue=
rrier.cachalot@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Hi everyone !<br>I&#39;m not flu=
ent in lojban at all, but I like study its linguistic<br>properties.<br>I w=
ondered something ... With such an high syllables&#39;s rate (I ask the<br>
rather fluent speakers/writers among us), comparing two short text,<br>with=
 typical constructs we use every day, such as : comparatives,<br>conditionn=
als, vocatives, citations from someone else, simples logical<br>links betwe=
en otherwise independent sentences.<br>
One in lojban ... and one in english, or any langage you are the most<br>fl=
uent in.<br>The two text written with the same look towards semantic detail=
s,<br>except when (whatever is considered as) evidents inferences from<br>
context can be made.<br><br>My question is the following : are you able, to=
 read the lojban piece<br>of text speedier than or as speedily as the chose=
n natlang piece of<br>text ?<br><br>Or not ?<br><br>Does lojban&#39;s preci=
seness and accuracy towards semantic content of its<br>
constructs make it inherently long-winded ?<br><br>ps: I am fluent only in =
French, and as you know French guys are the<br>worst students in foreign la=
nguages of the EU. If you wince in reading<br>me, please remember it !<br>
<br>Thank you, Mehdi<br></blockquote>
<div>=A0 In general, lojban translations of English sentences into lojban t=
hat carry the same amount of semantic information have about twice as many =
syllables as the English.=A0 (But not always -- take for example the song f=
rom the musical Rent=A0 called &quot;Five Hundred Twenty-Five Thousand Six =
Hundred Minutes&quot;.=A0 In lojban it&#39;s mentu li muremuxanono -- 13 sy=
llables in English, 9 in lojban)=A0 On the other hand, translating from=A0 =
lojban to English ALSO adds syllables in general.=A0 And the same is true, =
in general, for any translation of one language to another. Idioms and ways=
 of speaking have been crafted in one language specifically because those l=
anguages make it easier to say that particular thing, which may not be true=
 for a different langauge.</div>

<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa</div>
<div>=A0</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--0015175ca8666734f6048fae9a6e--