Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P3YZV-0003ky-6D; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:38 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf6046929yxs.16 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version :received:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5JtM7XkE33b070iUmfyuBiq1kmbpEMYXG/rfwKarvwo=; b=IVzTuJgwlVBPb058VqFACKBh/lrYWECbpWjaKQmURO026yzh0Nic1CTqtkKLE++ydE 5F8s6gIbOoDL8UqcMMCfcHsQ99wmRjcqKezDHRryqJBQFNf9IRd25cTuekhilHWmtuWO YOmXpVVM5YrGctT58Zdpt7JocBvuN9v/ZOyZs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=1wAt3v0SZwbaYvZeYVgGvTWzvUcTpWXv5/qZ4A8GRs/GjoQDRTEhv+V9ErcH0nC10I yEuCOtYX+1QGtqs7TvbG2PCwx+BNZbkM3Z6Lrzl0QSr1esi2cNV8ADHFkajENKs4lueb YLHuXhlHuwtIxFWGzRvt+t6RvbyQj84+OAo3w= Received: by 10.151.135.12 with SMTP id m12mr73468ybn.53.1286389087179; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.167.4 with SMTP id p4ls704833ybe.1.p; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.160.19 with SMTP id i19mr312708ybe.49.1286389086729; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.114.205 with SMTP id f13mr495833faq.3.1286388393960; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.114.205 with SMTP id f13mr495832faq.3.1286388393917; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f47.google.com (mail-fx0-f47.google.com [209.85.161.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y11si298967faj.10.2010.10.06.11.06.32; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.47; Received: by mail-fx0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 8so6303527fxm.34 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.239.153.80 with SMTP id y16mr946451hbb.149.1286388392581; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:06:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.186.196 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:06:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Adam Lopresto Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:06:12 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of weekdays and months. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f626d42edaaf0491f6a3e9 Content-Length: 12964 --001485f626d42edaaf0491f6a3e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Having given this some thought, I think the fundamental problem is that we're using words that don't have the place structure we want. We're using words that represent durations (like {temci}) instead of coordinates/addresses (like {tcika}). So I humbly (and with great trepedation) propose that we create two additional gismu. I'll call them {broda} and {brode}, since I don't have the ability to run the algorithm to assign them properly. {broda} is the day of week gismu broda: x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5 Similarly, brode is for days of the month (not months themselves), with place structure brode: x1 is the x2th day of month number x3 of year x3, under calendar/system x5 Then we can say things like "What day of the week is today?" ({le cabdei ma broda}), or "It's October" ({brode fi li pa no}). Weekdays get very natural lujvo, since {pavbroda} really *is* {broda be li pa}, and both represent Monday (at least, for the zu'i x5). Months, we'd have to convert a little, though, so there might be issues there. Or maybe the x2 place of brode doesn't belong there, and the rest need to be shifted over. I'm nearly certain that the weekday approach is right. I'd like to see proper fleshing out of the months, but I think starting from here is *much* better than trying to shoehorn things into {djedi} and {masti}. As a side note, if you really do need to deal with cultures that use different number schemes, you can put something unusual in x5. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Michael Eaton < michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote: > Regardless of whether of not the use of gismu space is allowed, I don't > really see any truly compelling reason why it shouldn't. The ability to > accurately and clearly define a specific day of the week is a not entirely > inconsequential function of language, and, regardless of who you are, it IS > a part of your everyday communication. The difference between being able to > say 'tuesday', as opposed to having to say 'the day two days after the next > day', is not one to be overlooked. > > As far as the existing standards for naming / numbering days go, the > 'numeric' standard, as rightly pointed out, can cause some syntax issues, > though these are slight and not amazingly difficult to work around, while > the 'conceptual' standard is rather un-lojban in approach, being far less > intuitive than a numbered system. > > As for alternatives proposed in this very thread, would you really rather > use, for instance, a fairly wieldy lujvo for so simple a concept as days of > the week? > > I'm not saying that days of the week SHOULD take up gismu space, nor am I > saying that they will, I'm merely pointing out that the alternatives come > with their own problems, and the use of gismu space would hardly be the > travesty it is being made out to be. > > -----Original Message----- > From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > [mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Lindar > Sent: 06 October 2010 09:30 > To: Lojban Beginners > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of > weekdays and months. > > > Either way, the point still stands. xorxes' proposal is likely to > continue to be ignored. Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu > space for days of the week will be shot down. Unless you can format > your argument entirely in very understandable Lojban, you're not going > to get even one word into gismu space. It's just not going to happen. > > So, you can either go with my suggestion, use the current standard, or > go with something like what selkik has proposed in another thread. > That's pretty much what you're down to. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ > This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as > part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. > > > http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ > This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as > part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. > > > ******************************************************************************See > the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by clicking > this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime****************************************************************************** > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --001485f626d42edaaf0491f6a3e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having given this some thought, I think the fundamental problem is that we&= #39;re using words that don't have the place structure we want. We'= re using words that represent durations (like {temci}) instead of coordinat= es/addresses (like {tcika}). So I humbly (and with great trepedation) propo= se that we create two additional gismu. =A0I'll call them {broda} and {= brode}, since I don't have the ability to run the algorithm to assign t= hem properly. {broda} is the day of week gismu

broda: x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, unde= r calendar/system x5

Similarly, brode is for days = of the month (not months themselves), with place structure

brode: x1 is the x2th day of month number x3 of year x3, under c= alendar/system x5

Then we can say things like &quo= t;What day of the week is today?" ({le cabdei ma broda}), or "It&= #39;s October" ({brode fi li pa no}).

Weekdays get very natural lujvo, since {pavbroda} reall= y *is* {broda be li pa}, and both represent Monday (at least, for the zu= 9;i x5). Months, we'd have to convert a little, though, so there might = be issues there. Or maybe the x2 place of brode doesn't belong there, a= nd the rest need to be shifted over.

I'm nearly certain that the weekday approach is rig= ht. I'd like to see proper fleshing out of the months, but I think star= ting from here is *much* better than trying to shoehorn things into {djedi}= and {masti}.

As a side note, if you really do need to deal with cult= ures that use different number schemes, you can put something unusual in x5= .

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:35 AM,= Michael Eaton <michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote:
Regardless of whether of not the use of gis= mu space is allowed, I don't really see any truly compelling reason why= it shouldn't. The ability to accurately and clearly define a specific = day of the week is a not entirely inconsequential function of language, and= , regardless of who you are, it IS a part of your everyday communication. T= he difference between being able to say 'tuesday', as opposed to ha= ving to say 'the day two days after the next day', is not one to be= overlooked.

As far as the existing standards for naming / numbering days go, the 'n= umeric' standard, as rightly pointed out, can cause some syntax issues,= though these are slight and not amazingly difficult to work around, while = the 'conceptual' standard is rather un-lojban in approach, being fa= r less intuitive than a numbered system.

As for alternatives proposed in this very thread, would you really rather u= se, for instance, a fairly wieldy lujvo for so simple a concept as days of = the week?

I'm not saying that days of the week SHOULD take up gismu space, nor am= I saying that they will, I'm merely pointing out that the alternatives= come with their own problems, and the use of gismu space would hardly be t= he travesty it is being made out to be.

-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-beginners= @googlegroups.com
[mailto:lojban-beginne= rs@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Lindar
Sent: 06 October 2010 09:30
To: Lojban Beginners
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of
weekdays and months.


Either way, the point still stands. xorxes' proposal is likely to
continue to be ignored. Your proposal to take up eight places in gismu
space for days of the week will be shot down. Unless you can format
your argument entirely in very understandable Lojban, you're not going<= br> to get even one word into gismu space. It's just not going to happen.
So, you can either go with my suggestion, use the current standard, or
go with something like what selkik has proposed in another thread.
That's pretty much what you're down to.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



=A0http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/
This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as par= t of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies.


=A0http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/
This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as par= t of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies.


***************************************************************************= ***See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by = clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime *********************= *********************************************************

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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--001485f626d42edaaf0491f6a3e9--