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From: Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>
Organization: Sobole
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "Towards the end of..."
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:13:14 +0200
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Dnia poniedzia=B3ek, 11 pa=BCdziernika 2010 o 15:31:51 Jorge Llamb=EDas nap=
isa=B3(a):
> 2010/10/11 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>:
> > Say I want to add a sumtcita that amounts to "towards the end of <some =
event>". Am I imagining this journey correctly as {co'u pu zi lo nu broda}?
>=20
> Two issues:
>=20
> (1) "co'u pu zi" is not a valid compound tense with the current
> grammar, so what you have is two terms:  "co'u ku" and  "pu zi lo nu
> broda".
>=20
> That first issue should go away if this proposal is accepted:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DInternal+grammar+of+tags

Ouch... You've just found a new supporter in this quest ;)

> (2) This is the more interesting issue for me. "co'u" to me always
> indicates the end of the event in the matrix clause, not the end of
> the subordinate clause event inside the tagged sumti. So:
>=20
>       mi co'u tcidu
>       "I finish reading."
>=20
>       mi tcidu co'u ko'a
>       "I read until ko'a."
>       "I finish reading at ko'a."
>=20
> This, however, is a contentious issue, and some people will interpret
> "mi tcidu co'u ko'a" as "I read when ko'a is finishing".

Hmmm, that's how I would read it...

> That makes
> little sense to me, because all the other non-ZAhO tags have the same
> effect on the matrix clause whether they are used directly on the
> selbri or with a tagged sumti. Making an exception for ZAhO doesn't
> seem reasonable. So to me "co'u ko'a" is "ending at ko'a", not "at the
> end of ko'a". What is at its end is the reading, not ko'a.

OK, so I agree exceptions are out of the question. But could it be possible=
 to massage the general rule somewhat to make it more, let's say, intuitive=
, in the sense "how a newbie would understand it"? :)

> So to get your meaning I would say:
>=20
>       ca lo nu pu'o co'u broda
>       "As broda is about to end"
>=20
> That one should work for everyone, because "pu'o co'u" is a valid
> compound tense and the meaning as selbri tcita is not in dispute.

A little roundabout, but good enough, I guess :) ki'e doi .xorxes.
=2D-=20
Ecce Jezuch
"Jon: I think setting goals is very important.
Garfield: Good idea. Without a goal, how would you know when you failed?"

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