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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:51:14 -0600
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLx7gzsY9VUOweW2ScUGhhWWUrHqGKd6Jdv3OZ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] newbie question on bridi construction
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > You're right. The example's wrong. {sipna} has no spot for location.
>
> It was probably unintended, but wrong is too strong.
>
> Arguably the English translation is slightly wrong, in that it's too
> specific, but then the most likely connection of an event like that
> with a room is that the event takes place in the room, so ...
>

I did say later in my original post that I believe the author merely mistoo=
k
the place structure of sipna.


>   > The
> > example should have been {la.alis. sipna ne'i lo ri kumfa}, or better,
> > {la.alis. [cu] sipna fi'o nenri lo kumfa pe ri [ku] [fe'u]}, which also
> > shows the omitted bits in [].
>
> Why do you think "fi'o (se) nenri" is better than "ne'i"?
>

I don't think {fi'o se nenri} is better. I merely used {fi'o nenri} instead
of {ne'i} to show .deivyd. they were equivalent. Which is the same reason I
did {lo kumfa pe ri} instead of {lo ri kumfa}. Thank you for pointing out
that I was saying that the room was in the sleeping. I was thinking
backwards. So {ne'i} =3D {fi'o se nenri}.


> But you can't have loose sumti inside a fi'o - fe'u
>
> You want either: "la .alis cu sipna fi'o se nenri [fe'u] lo ri kumfa"
> or "la .alis cu sipna fi'o nenri be lo ri kumfa [fe'u]"
>

Ah. I thought fe'u terminated the entire fi'o construct, not the selbri
portion. I assume this is for occasions when you want to fi'o a tanru?


> And if you include [fe'u] and [ku] you should probably also include
> [ge'u] and [vau] and [be'o], so:
>
> la.alis. cu sipna fi'o nenri be lo kumfa pe ri [ge'u] [ku] [be'o] [fe'u]
> [vau]
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>

I wouldn't use the {be} version. I don't think {fi'o <selbri> be <sumti>}
occurs in actual usage very often. So:

{la.alis. [cu] sipna fi'o se nenri [fe'u] lo kumfa pe ri [ge'u] [ku] [vau]}
or:

{la.alis. [cu] sipna ne'i lo ri kumfa [ku] [vau]} with preference towards
the latter, as it is most similar to the original.

--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d=
o
zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You&#39;re right. The example&#39;s wrong. {sipna} has no spot for loc=
ation.<br>
<br>
</div>It was probably unintended, but wrong is too strong.<br>
<br>
Arguably the English translation is slightly wrong, in that it&#39;s too<br=
>
specific, but then the most likely connection of an event like that<br>
with a room is that the event takes place in the room, so ...<br></blockquo=
te><div><br>I did say later in my original post that I believe the author m=
erely mistook the place structure of sipna.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

<div class=3D"im">
=A0&gt; The<br>
&gt; example should have been {la.alis. sipna ne&#39;i lo ri kumfa}, or bet=
ter,<br>
&gt; {la.alis. [cu] sipna fi&#39;o nenri lo kumfa pe ri [ku] [fe&#39;u]}, w=
hich also<br>
&gt; shows the omitted bits in [].<br>
<br>
</div>Why do you think &quot;fi&#39;o (se) nenri&quot; is better than &quot=
;ne&#39;i&quot;?<br></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t think {fi&#39;o se ne=
nri} is better. I merely used {fi&#39;o nenri} instead of {ne&#39;i} to sho=
w .deivyd. they were equivalent. Which is the same reason I did {lo kumfa p=
e ri} instead of {lo ri kumfa}. Thank you for pointing out that I was sayin=
g that the room was in the sleeping. I was thinking backwards. So {ne&#39;i=
} =3D {fi&#39;o se nenri}.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

But you can&#39;t have loose sumti inside a fi&#39;o - fe&#39;u<br>
<br>
You want either: &quot;la .alis cu sipna fi&#39;o se nenri [fe&#39;u] lo ri=
 kumfa&quot;<br>
or &quot;la .alis cu sipna fi&#39;o nenri be lo ri kumfa [fe&#39;u]&quot;<b=
r></blockquote><div><br>Ah. I thought fe&#39;u terminated the entire fi&#39=
;o construct, not the selbri portion. I assume this is for occasions when y=
ou want to fi&#39;o a tanru?<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

And if you include [fe&#39;u] and [ku] you should probably also include<br>
[ge&#39;u] and [vau] and [be&#39;o], so:<br>
<br>
la.alis. cu sipna fi&#39;o nenri be lo kumfa pe ri [ge&#39;u] [ku] [be&#39;=
o] [fe&#39;u] [vau]<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br></div></blockquote></div><br>I wouldn&#39;t use=
 the {be} version. I don&#39;t think {fi&#39;o &lt;selbri&gt; be &lt;sumti&=
gt;} occurs in actual usage very often. So:<br><br>{la.alis. [cu] sipna fi&=
#39;o se nenri [fe&#39;u] lo kumfa pe ri [ge&#39;u] [ku] [vau]} or:<br>
<br>{la.alis. [cu] sipna ne&#39;i lo ri kumfa [ku] [vau]} with preference t=
owards the latter, as it is most similar to the original.<br clear=3D"all">=
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.a&#39;o.e&#39;e ko cmima le=
 bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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/>
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