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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:09:14 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
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I think part of your confusion is coming from your glosses.  I think you're
incorrectly inserting the "being a" in your gloss of {mi kakne lo bajra}.
 {mi kakne lo bajra} does not say "I am capable of [being a] runner".  It's
just {I am capable of doing the 'runner' event}  whatever event "runner"
might be.  You are not "being" anything when you say {mi kakne lo bajra}

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata
> comparison helps a great deal.
>
> But I don't yet fully comprehend "X2 IS an event or state, regardless
> of what it might be.  If x2 starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then
> it's essentially superfluous
> (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state).  But if it
> doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS
> being a runner."
>
> ...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English
> glosses, that the "lo drata/ lo nu drata" example has a readily
> apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of
> this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the
> original two cases. It seems to me that the two should be equivalent:
>
> Lojban: { mi kakne lo bajra }
> Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> Gloss: "I'm capable of a running event"
> English: (I can run)
>
> Lojban: { mi kakne lo nu bajra }
> Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> Gloss: "I'm capable of the event of (me?*) running"
> English: (I can run)
>
> ki'e .i co'o mi'e korbi
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >  I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a)
> > and b) above were.   So let me give it some context:
> >
> > a)  mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is
> different)
> >
> > b)  mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata.  (I am capable of the event of
> > me being different)
> >
> >  a) I am running.  I can do something else (besides running).
> >  b) I am running.  I can (also) be something other (than what I am,
> > presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness).
> >
> >           --gejyspa
>
> --
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>
>

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I think part of your confusion is coming from your glosses. =A0I think you&=
#39;re incorrectly=A0inserting=A0the &quot;being a&quot; in your gloss of {=
mi kakne lo bajra}. =A0{mi kakne lo bajra} does not say &quot;I am capable =
of [being a] runner&quot;. =A0It&#39;s just {I am capable of doing the &#39=
;runner&#39; event} =A0whatever event &quot;runner&quot; might be. =A0You a=
re not &quot;being&quot; anything when you say {mi kakne lo bajra}<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Oren <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:get.oren@gmail.com">get.oren@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata<br>
comparison helps a great deal.<br>
<br>
But I don&#39;t yet fully comprehend &quot;X2 IS an event or state, regardl=
ess<br>
<div class=3D"im">of what it might be. =A0If x2=A0starts with &quot;lo nu&q=
uot;, &quot;lo za&#39;i&quot;, etc. then<br>
it&#39;s essentially superfluous<br>
(other than to clarify if it&#39;s an event or a state). =A0But if it<br>
doesn&#39;t such as &quot;lo bajra&quot;, then it is an event or a state AS=
 WELL AS<br>
being a runner.&quot;<br>
<br>
</div>...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English<br>
glosses, that the &quot;lo drata/ lo nu drata&quot; example has a readily<b=
r>
apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of<br>
this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the<br>
original two cases.=A0It seems to me that the two should be equivalent:<br>
<br>
Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo bajra }<br>
Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: &quot;being a&quot;] r=
unner&quot;)<br>
Gloss: &quot;I&#39;m capable of a running event&quot;<br>
English: (I can run)<br>
<br>
Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo nu bajra }<br>
Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: &quot;being a&quot;]=
 runner&quot;)<br>
Gloss: &quot;I&#39;m capable of the event of (me?*) running&quot;<br>
English: (I can run)<br>
<br>
ki&#39;e .i co&#39;o mi&#39;e korbi<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mtu=
rniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a)<=
br>
&gt; and b) above were. =A0 So let me give it some context:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is =
different)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata. =A0(I am capable of the event =
of<br>
&gt; me being different)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0a) I am running. =A0I can do something else (besides running).<br>
&gt; =A0b) I am running. =A0I can (also) be something other (than what I am=
,<br>
&gt; presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa<br>
<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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