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From: Oren <get.oren@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:23:42 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
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Alright, I understand now. My confusion was motivated in part by my
glosses seeming indistinguishable. The demonstration that {mi kakne lo
bajra } implies {lo se kakne cu bajra } cleared this up for me a great
deal!

However, I got a bone to pick now! As someone translating the gismu
list into Chinese, I wish I had known that the
(parenthetical/classifiers) before sumti were (sometimes?)
prerequisites for "sensical-ness," and not just helpful guides like
the [square/brackets/of/synonyms] before some sumti are.

I'm specifically thinking of the linked gismu list found on jbotcan
[http://jbotcan.org/gismulinked.html], where these parenthetical
expressions can range from as precise and seemingly "highly
recommended" as (jo'u) or (ka), to as English and seemingly only for
glossing purposes as (person/object), (event/state) or even (agent).

I may just be missing something. Are there in fact explicit
recommended markers for *all* (parenthetical/classifiers) on the list
I'm referencing? That is, it seems here that "... (event/state) x2
..." means something like "... (use nu or za'i) x2 ..." ...do such
cmavo-prescriptions exist for (event/property/interval/idea) too? And
all the rest?

I suspect that for things like (object/agent) we may be relying on
gray-area "common sense" distinctions between groups of gismu (i.e.
"Well, that makes no sense because normally tables aren't agents!"),
and not anything formalized-- in which case, I think we should improve
this document to make that clearer, even if it just means explicitly
using cmavo for instances where cmavo are recommended, and leaving the
other (gloss/classifiers) alone.

Although if we all had more time, I think it would be valuable to come
up with lists of sensical "object/agent/etc" tags for gismu.

co'o mi'e korbi

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 05:34, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I would not be surprised if hypothetical future native speakers of lojban would find this shortcut very convenient, though...
>
> Is not shortcut, is wrong.
> Not think is good.
>
>>_>
>
> It's not a shortcut, it's just wrong. It means "I'm capable of a
> runner." and that's always what it will mean. Nobody that -actually-
> speaks Lojban would agree with your sentiments. lo bajra will always
> be a runner, and lo nu bajra will always be an event of being a runner
> (or "running"), and the day that it stops working like that is the day
> that I give up on Lojban forever. It would introduce vast amounts of
> ambiguity to have implicit abstractors, and has always been rejected.
> That's called "sumti raising" and is probably worse than malgli.
>
> How would it be a shortcut, anyway? It's one phoneme.
>
> (Sorry for getting huffy. I did this when I was new as well. Just... -
> don't- do it. We do things the way they're done for a very good
> reason, and we've been doing it for at least a score longer than you.
> Rather than suggest we change something, learn why we do it.)
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>
>



-- 
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

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