Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBW3L-0000ms-Vg; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:14:29 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf2387267qwh.16 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:14:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=/yfoTt8qTVSH7eZT8V4t4qs8NMULNISJc+y9/8litN0=; b=T41QaBxfivODIFZDNQ/DOX88kh4/Ff63vNRUaLuF24T69T4zz9rtOu2U/r1ZX9dgYq k+JC8yCsC56ESHUufBiuTJH8hw2u75grR935IlQOt8z4WGnBqTTtHyhlo8sNDRhkNbYR VFYwcjbWoCMYtuNgEEHHN+M6mER8+HKM5OJqs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=qdGM6ukXivlLZV2a4N4f9e+WJv6DVLkbFkZSofWAxwhpAXGkaRPGOmqIc06zlOb6W0 LGCngX2tBMqpbzq+wjgBE0HDpDA21FptSj7y7cbqxFKAgCb1+Gvp1qPaKyd8Js7Go5OU h3vdT9CYFEziHHEYknc1ocfI1BIHYqB2VXqsI= Received: by 10.229.130.170 with SMTP id t42mr655161qcs.28.1288286037437; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.56.161 with SMTP id y33ls911068qcg.1.p; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.4 with SMTP id cy4mr841542qcb.19.1288286036660; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.4 with SMTP id cy4mr841541qcb.19.1288286036638; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si723455qci.4.2010.10.28.10.13.56; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.212.49 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2so513684vws.36 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.107.21 with SMTP id f21mr400522wfc.427.1288286033863; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13sm15442614wfc.17.2010.10.28.10.13.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:13:49 -0600 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra Message-ID: <20101028171348.GB45294@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com References: <20101027160630.GD43996@alice.local> <2b585d63-1def-4797-8c75-453e66cac098@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.212.49 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Length: 2558 On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:25:52AM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:30 AM, tijlan wrote: > > On 28 October 2010 10:34, Lindar wrote: > >>> I would not be surprised if hypothetical future native speakers of lojban would find this shortcut very convenient, though... > >> > >> Is not shortcut, is wrong. > >> Not think is good. > >> > >>>_> > >> > >> It's not a shortcut, it's just wrong. It means "I'm capable of a > >> runner." and that's always what it will mean. Nobody that -actually- > >> speaks Lojban would agree with your sentiments. lo bajra will always > >> be a runner, and lo nu bajra will always be an event of being a runner > >> (or "running"), and the day that it stops working like that is the day > >> that I give up on Lojban forever. It would introduce vast amounts of > >> ambiguity to have implicit abstractors, and has always been rejected. > > > > How exactly is "a runner" different from "an event of being a runner"? > > If X is a runner, doesn't X represent an event of being a runner? > > > > No. X is a person (or animal, or whatever). An "event of running" > is an action. X can perform the action of running ("da zukte lo nu > [da] bajra") or can cause it ("da gasnu lo nu lo xirma cu bajra"), but > he can't BE it. > --gejyspa > I think "Dreshcher and the toaster" may be worth understanding: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html#id3141308 Drescher and the toaster A disciple of another sect once came to Drescher as he was eating his morning meal. "I would like to give you this personality test", said the outsider, "because I want you to be happy." Drescher took the paper that was offered him and put it into the toaster, saying: "I wish the toaster to be happy, too." "I would like to give you this personality test because taking it will result in you being happy." is one fix for one possible interpretation of this koan. I know there are others! I do think his koan demonstrates the problem domain. Is happiness a property of the test? Is toaster happiness the same as tester happiness? -Alan -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.