Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCICntNPQBRCdha3mBBoEogulHw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1PBwuV-0001nY-1l; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:57 -0700
Received: by ywk9 with SMTP id 9sf3848632ywk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version
         :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent
         :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help
         :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=RWU0zktzPqduinroR8bLp9yqe4hWSkDNcIucaGz4HAY=;
        b=xOJs7RPtuZRrAPNaW95Ih2k1EZjZJAvX5tFmyaYxuYGIYkXkqk7fdamd8gRaRecd6k
         u77facgvssniIVejeHOG9YrOki/LnC8MHch2kaJoFjZLpDscEw/VPOiRb3hHbsD3V/BI
         h0K6CmQmQXdzM8wKyTFXyCOmI0TiOxgSeDxU4=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references
         :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=l3z321nAFHsmGSiX9VXNAMOvlVow3VIwmfJagYllIa0MEXz69NK+JW4cDTDLglbpb8
         LvNUXho/9OPbH0MZlrEmQRYln6kpZTRnPlSZOEueF2GsrNrhiQvofxqMGeJsZFOa/oOr
         PazxrZppwHE9GfUvTfsaDMxNJSXZiYBRXHvwA=
Received: by 10.90.13.17 with SMTP id 17mr390973agm.47.1288389277314;
        Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.91.149.14 with SMTP id b14ls645299ago.6.p; Fri, 29 Oct 2010
 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.90.115.18 with SMTP id n18mr390287agc.58.1288389276695; Fri,
 29 Oct 2010 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:36
 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SRHr3kc9A+ouRgZnx209ELtkqL1dhL2fovdjB@mail.gmail.com>
X-IP: 32.174.248.248
References: <AANLkTi=uPL_o+G-qtQXa8Bmh4Py05qqd3T97E5svkryu@mail.gmail.com>
 <20101027160630.GD43996@alice.local> <2b585d63-1def-4797-8c75-453e66cac098@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
 <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
 <AANLkTi=5eg9g0xbzS366WFxENq0VX_=SDjysiwORGq4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTi=Rzq-aSLO9OqH8Xko4SwJ==-w9Lk30D9O9KpNk@mail.gmail.com>
 <20101028171348.GB45294@alice.local> <AANLkTinjdYWH4bF9ZFJ8w7=-xkxFno12QneiN4n9rys3@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTi=SRHr3kc9A+ouRgZnx209ELtkqL1dhL2fovdjB@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12)
 Gecko/20101027 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.12,gzip(gfe)
Message-ID: <73ebebef-27b3-4093-8a32-1a66115a02c0@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
From: Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Length: 2193



On Oct 29, 10:45=A0am, Oren <get.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It doesn't seem right to me that there are all of these implicit types
> associated with certain gismu, without my knowledge.

1. It's written out in the definition very plainly.
djuno - x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology
x4.

2. It's almost common sense. We're not trying to sneak something past
you.
{.i mi djuno lo bajra} means something like "I know that a runner."
{.i mi djuno lo du'u do bajra} means something like "I know that you
run."

One of these doesn't make sense.

Some of them (like {fanza} for example) may not be too obvious due to
natural language bias, which is why we -do- have them explicitly laid
out, but common sense should still be applied. You can't want an
apple, you can want to -eat- an apple. You can't be annoyed by
somebody, you can be annoyed by something that somebody does.

> I feel like,
> especially for learners of lojban, these virtual "parts-of-speech"
> should be explicitly laid out, so that people don't have to question
> whether "running" is an event or an action or what have you.

It is. We should probably update the language in the definitions to
explicitly say (ka/nu/za'i) instead of (property/event/state), but
they already do have these explicitly stated in the definitions.

> So... If anyone wants to help, I'm going to do this and integrate it
> into the Chinese translation for the gismu list I'm doing.

I don't speak a bit of Chinese.

I do, however, appreciate your input and concern. I will document this
in the appropriate BPFK section and it will be addressed when all
other issues are as well. The idea behind these is explicitly laid out
very early on in the teaching model that we're trying to perfect, so
it will definitely be made more clear in future documents.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.