Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PHJNX-0005ub-Pz; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:55:10 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf2845899wwb.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wAD0r25X2if1TtToDkUI+9vktaluFDAtrVPmFCAlSH4=; b=etf9rnzCtVPC2SAa9xJsRK28tkuZuqwwYvjlgktCLAOZGIWpU0Az0/SNbjMOfRa4Nh oRPfWapPVMR2510eNeSD3PZkjsYBtHxmXhguSlp983y3XVAJgA2C0tLdQzQiYELC+R2Z CcpqG//f+MdU7SWg12l7v1BGGyxO4kiuyypFU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=DTfHVNXHZJ0ECUByCcxe9CUXVbEliEYkWgj01OZOrYNYhccGnqnxUab3vlihW5Pg9r RDDqj1dVRMnHuoVOMw8CeAY+WCENYvTmtj/L0CQiogzsiW2RGbdWbAP0VXs10RRBHnEt Q+e+0ad9HR9enlUQc5Wy0ROv0ngN27j+TbE8I= Received: by 10.216.4.72 with SMTP id 50mr109952wei.1.1289667285823; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:45 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.123.10 with SMTP id u10ls724742eeh.2.p; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.195 with SMTP id n43mr496896eeh.3.1289667283400; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.195 with SMTP id n43mr496895eeh.3.1289667283375; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f176.google.com (mail-ey0-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v14si1471631eeh.5.2010.11.13.08.54.42; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.176; Received: by eyz10 with SMTP id 10so2401833eyz.35 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.200 with SMTP id i8mr4147311ebd.55.1289667282195; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.34.200 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:54:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 11:54:41 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Jargon and Abbreviations From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1bce3bd62d0494f210a5 Content-Length: 8956 --0015174c1bce3bd62d0494f210a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't accept that fu'ivla are the right way to deal with jargon (except culturally specific words). When I asked this question, I was imagining a lojbanistan where lojban is the primary language and a new field is developed, requiring new jargon. I'd imagine that people would be reluctant to create new lujvo right away when old and established words suit their ideas mostly well enough; the old phrases/words might become jargon, carrying a meaning that is slightly different than their intended meaning. I guess I'm wondering how lojban is expected to deal with the world changing out from under it slightly. As for abbreviations, I meant things like Americans shortening "television" to "TV" or Francophones shortening "sympatique" to "sympa", and I was also thinking about acronyms a bit, e.g. MADD (mothers against drunk driving). I'd assume that lojban would forbid both types. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Zifre wrote: > On Nov 12, 3:55 pm, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > I was just wondering a lot, and two thoughts came to mind that I wanted > to > > ask the community. > > > > 1) How does lojban deal with jargon? Mathematical jargon has been > > considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation" > > means something completely different and only marginally related to what > it > > means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact > that > > we're talking about people and not copper? > > This is mainly what fu'ivla are for. Type 3 fu'ivla have a classifier > that tells the listener what general field you are dealing with. For > example, Esperanto could be bangrnesperanto. > > In the examples you gave, dislocation might be saskrndislokeicyna and > mikcrndislokeicyna. (To those who know more about this than me, how do > you decide on the final vowel?) > > > 2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to > > shorten long, frequently used phrases? It's inherently ambiguous in the > way > > that lojban doesn't like, right? > > Lojban can be as specific or as ambiguous as you want. Just because > Lojban is "logical" does not mean it doesn't work like any other human > language. To me, the important thing is that the grammar is > unambiguous. I think it is a good thing to be semantically ambiguous > in a lot of cases. From what I can tell, spoken Lojban is not really > any longer than English or any other language, especially when it is > not translated from another language. To give you an idea of how > simple Lojban phrases can be, here are some examples: > > do mo - What are you doing? What's up? Who are you? > coi ma - Hello. What's your name? > ui na fasnu - I'm happy that it didn't happen. > mu'i ma do co'e - Why did you do it? > uu do cortu - This one is kind of hard to translate, possibly: I'm > sorry about your injury/pain. > > As you can you, these are very short and ambiguous, yet follow the > rules of Lojban. > > mu'o mi'e zif > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015174c1bce3bd62d0494f210a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't accept that fu'ivla are the right way to deal with jargon (= except culturally specific words).=A0 When I asked this question, I was ima= gining a lojbanistan where lojban is the primary language and a new field i= s developed, requiring new jargon.=A0 I'd imagine that people would be = reluctant to create new lujvo right away when old and established words sui= t their ideas mostly well enough; the old phrases/words might become jargon= , carrying a meaning that is slightly different than their intended meaning= .

I guess I'm wondering how lojban is expected to deal with the world= changing out from under it slightly.

As for abbreviations, I meant = things like Americans shortening "television" to "TV" o= r Francophones shortening "sympatique" to "sympa", and = I was also thinking about acronyms a bit, e.g. MADD (mothers against drunk = driving).

I'd assume that lojban would forbid both types.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Zifre &= lt;kmicklas@gmail.com> = wrote:
On Nov 12, 3:55=A0pm, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglove...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just wondering a lot, and two thoughts came to mind that I wante= d to
> ask the community.
>
> 1) How does lojban deal with jargon? =A0Mathematical jargon has been > considered, but what about others? =A0In materials science, a "di= slocation"
> means something completely different and only marginally related to wh= at it
> means in medicine. =A0Do we just use the same word and rely on the fac= t that
> we're talking about people and not copper?

This is mainly what fu'ivla are for. Type 3 fu'ivla have a cl= assifier
that tells the listener what general field you are dealing with. For
example, Esperanto could be bangrnesperanto.

In the examples you gave, dislocation might be saskrndislokeicyna and
mikcrndislokeicyna. (To those who know more about this than me, how do
you decide on the final vowel?)

> 2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to=
> shorten long, frequently used phrases? =A0It's inherently ambiguou= s in the way
> that lojban doesn't like, right?

Lojban can be as specific or as ambiguous as you want. Just because Lojban is "logical" does not mean it doesn't work like any ot= her human
language. To me, the important thing is that the grammar is
unambiguous. I think it is a good thing to be semantically ambiguous
in a lot of cases. From what I can tell, spoken Lojban is not really
any longer than English or any other language, especially when it is
not translated from another language. To give you an idea of how
simple Lojban phrases can be, here are some examples:

do mo - What are you doing? What's up? Who are you?
coi ma - Hello. What's your name?
ui na fasnu - I'm happy that it didn't happen.
mu'i ma do co'e - Why did you do it?
uu do cortu - This one is kind of hard to translate, possibly: I'm
sorry about your injury/pain.

As you can you, these are very short and ambiguous, yet follow the
rules of Lojban.

mu'o mi'e zif

--
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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
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