Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhDm7d7nBBoE2eLRJQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1POAo5-0003N2-UR; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:58 -0800
Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17sf4815858wwb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:43 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received
         :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received
         :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=6K+MpyRtUVIAdvHTl5BfOFk8p2MDSKt8GkbykxaVm70=;
        b=w3zJ7e5CGtkHLnmoGNXhWmHcM82CBHoPe2RnC89M3cXh4KZE+igWxygiaSh02oR24T
         pOzBEK45woLVFKUPx3sGrgtCv1s9t/MXCuEuH7ihsmlsfo2OSP0284EVWtRxtbLNPRQ8
         9oKzJKSLD+dgAQqtvBuXIY3vN5HYG31ojTj/A=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        b=4wFNsOyRVZvo2tnyB6A40J18h8vrp8oK8rvRSgjAsAv3xSlh7A82nK4yafgE73vPXK
         CoieBbiC6cy/lfm4lhpuWS01z/K6EZXZjLqYoZ2y/xDRpbgEh6Z0irnDuQFVKIYSOEZV
         GTXhLUrFWCJFHN3fYsGl95Es38/Wl5PdvxdH8=
Received: by 10.216.237.89 with SMTP id x67mr45782weq.28.1291302630990;
        Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:30 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.14.10.75 with SMTP id 51ls1124502eeu.6.p; Thu, 02 Dec 2010
 07:10:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.14.2.211 with SMTP id 59mr47571eef.28.1291302628673;
        Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.14.2.211 with SMTP id 59mr47570eef.28.1291302628650;
        Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ey0-f182.google.com (mail-ey0-f182.google.com [209.85.215.182])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t6si204295eeh.0.2010.12.02.07.10.27;
        Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:27 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.182;
Received: by mail-ey0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 7so31327690eyb.27
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:10:27 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.213.32.9 with SMTP id a9mr2827393ebd.60.1291302627304; Thu, 02
 Dec 2010 07:10:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.213.14.137 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 07:10:26 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinX_fERHJWrOSK9y7TfOPn-hn9Ba7u7+urDwWQx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinveFd4eA55dV=XVbD7hgpUcyEe81Ls8iZ71uLn@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=9E9YK36_RRRwZgSOGmmA6BepWq26wHUxeqVXR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim5yjc7YGOe5n_hfX0y-4v8NJ9K0_fJT8-Rng_3@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinX_fERHJWrOSK9y7TfOPn-hn9Ba7u7+urDwWQx@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 10:10:26 -0500
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=viu+0d9n6SnvmosVENWqWcHo735OZqBcSA-D=@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Day standard
From: Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.182 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c100865e5d804966ed27a
Content-Length: 6315

--0015174c100865e5d804966ed27a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _real_
lesson, but post-xorlo it's something to do with a lesson, determined from
context.

Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that in lojban?) one
might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; otherwise, I feel
like some sort of implicit raising is occurring.

As for pointing to a dog:  you're not requiring that something which is
really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is just fine.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permissible due
> to
> > xorlo.  Is there a more precise way to fill in the "by standard x"?
> >
>   I don't know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps you are
> thinking about it as a natlang speaker.  Xorlo or not, when you put
> something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definition_
> some type of manri. "lo ctufau" simply specifies what type of manri it
> is -- it's a ctufau manri.  I could explicitly _say_ "lo ctufau
> manri", but it's not necessary, and more than it's necessary, when
> pointing to a dog, to say "ta barda gerku" instead of "ta barda".
> Doesn't make it any less of a dog, you're just calling out the salient
> feature you want to express, that it's big.  Describing a te bavlamdei
> as a ctufau doesn't make it any less of a te bavlamdei.
>
>  I'm probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope my point
> is getting across.  (Perhaps it would make more sense if I used a more
> analgous sentence, like "mi cadzu lo clani"?)
>
>                --gejyspa
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>


-- 
          Alex R

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--0015174c100865e5d804966ed27a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _real_ le=
sson, but post-xorlo it&#39;s something to do with a lesson, determined fro=
m context.<br><br>Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that i=
n lojban?) one might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; othe=
rwise, I feel like some sort of implicit raising is occurring.=A0 <br>
<br>As for pointing to a dog:=A0 you&#39;re not requiring that something wh=
ich is really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is ju=
st fine.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, =
Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmai=
l.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"=
>On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rp=
glover64@gmail.com">rpglover64@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt; It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permissible du=
e to<br>
&gt; xorlo.=A0 Is there a more precise way to fill in the &quot;by standard=
 x&quot;?<br>
&gt;<br>
</div> =A0I don&#39;t know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps you =
are<br>
thinking about it as a natlang speaker. =A0Xorlo or not, when you put<br>
something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definition_<br>
some type of manri. &quot;lo ctufau&quot; simply specifies what type of man=
ri it<br>
is -- it&#39;s a ctufau manri. =A0I could explicitly _say_ &quot;lo ctufau<=
br>
manri&quot;, but it&#39;s not necessary, and more than it&#39;s necessary, =
when<br>
pointing to a dog, to say &quot;ta barda gerku&quot; instead of &quot;ta ba=
rda&quot;.<br>
Doesn&#39;t make it any less of a dog, you&#39;re just calling out the sali=
ent<br>
feature you want to express, that it&#39;s big. =A0Describing a te bavlamde=
i<br>
as a ctufau doesn&#39;t make it any less of a te bavlamdei.<br>
<br>
 =A0I&#39;m probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope my point<=
br>
is getting across. =A0(Perhaps it would make more sense if I used a more<br=
>
analgous sentence, like &quot;mi cadzu lo clani&quot;?)<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-begi=
nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>
For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R</div></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--0015174c100865e5d804966ed27a--