Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PaeBX-0007hO-V7; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:39 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf15011016ywh.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7nrMiZ1mv2W5rdEmQlxosC1YSeYOjuMNujvCgLEgblE=; b=uxyYt80omiJIKWxFc9mAbF3/+qyXG/x0lzxF0RTWKf3fYx46rd6Tf4mC9OdV121TRj GYF9XmY1dgwYxRbpZ5xuNPMQlg0wIFWVwpDZyqq8jP0pAoimBgBtWmVp+8bV0fO2WB5J IBkqBaU9UzbH7YT+AIp3Kk+DjwgQ7Z91MCO+4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TXwP3gphZTt0iFsqqkrAjtjrGiPUq4G6/zhPquGjmFpMhbAqN0D/Qze02Go05PS8mg qzV2TLEk4Aq40wpVkIrLk1xMOAaI/fJjveVkMunN8z8M3921nBqfvq/Z3zjk7P+uPkxd R55WIv5tYvhSRY3of1Lyjgvn8NN7mEHqoCKuQ= Received: by 10.91.163.27 with SMTP id q27mr95315ago.57.1294275501584; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls12828454ibk.2.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr473767ibx.19.1294275500668; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr473766ibx.19.1294275500630; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f175.google.com (mail-iw0-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si5301727ibq.7.2011.01.05.16.58.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.175; Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so15752077iwn.34 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.131 with SMTP id p3mr23420976ibd.87.1294275499479; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.14.197 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:58:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Implied {ko} From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032557a2ba635488049922ff69 Content-Length: 7520 --00032557a2ba635488049922ff69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, when I said that "zo'e can be replaced by anything" I meant indicate that: zo'e means something like [some thing goes here and let context decide what it is]. That context could be anything. zo'e can be understood to be {lo gerku}, {lo mlatu} or {lo ka prami kei}. That's what I meant by "zo'e can be replaced by anything". Apparently it can't though (ko, noda, ma, etc...) I guess I'm fine with all of those although I'm kind of confused by noda though. Would you say that it would be ok to "replace" {zi'o} with {noda}? i.e. is {mi citka noda} a valid way to understand somebody who says {mi citka zi'o}? If so, then my point of contention is with the statement that {zo'e} cannot be understood to mean {zi'o}. If I say {mi jinvi fo zo'e} is it not possible that I am claiming to opine something with no basis (i.e. blind faith)? 2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > > That being said, if leaving a space out implies {zo'e} > > Almost always. The exceptions are when leaving out "ke'a" and "ce'u". > > > and {zo'e} can be > > replaced by anything, > > Not really. "zo'e" refers to an obvious or irrelevant value. It can > only be replaced by a blank (sometimes). Anything else will almost > certainly give a more precise meaning. And you certainly can't replace > "zo'e" with something like "no da" for example, which more or less > reverses "zo'e"'s meaning. > "mi citka zo'e" means I eat, "mi citka no da" means that I don't. > > "ko" refers to the audience, like "do", and if the audience is the > obvious value in some context, you could use "zo'e" instead of "do", > but "ko" does more than refer to the audience, it has an additional > function which "zo'e" does not have. If you throw in an "e'o", "e'u", > etc. then you could leave out the "ko" because the attitudinal will > provide that part of "ko"'s function. > > Similarly, you can't use "zo'e" instead of "ma", because "ma" doesn't > refer to anything, and "zo'e" does, whereas "ma" asks for the audience > to respond with something, and "zo'e" doesn't. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00032557a2ba635488049922ff69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, when I said that "zo'e can be replaced by anything" I = meant indicate that:

zo'e means something like [some= thing goes here and let context decide what it is]. =A0That context could = be anything. =A0zo'e can be understood to be {lo gerku}, {lo mlatu} or = {lo ka prami kei}. =A0That's what I meant by "zo'e can be repl= aced by anything".

Apparently it can't though (ko, noda, ma, etc...)

I guess I'm fine with all of those although I&#= 39;m kind of confused by noda though. =A0Would you say that it would be ok = to "replace" {zi'o} with {noda}? =A0i.e. is {mi citka noda} a= valid way to understand somebody who says {mi citka zi'o}? =A0If so, t= hen my point of contention is with the statement that {zo'e} cannot be = understood to mean {zi'o}.

If I say {mi jinvi fo zo'e} is it not possible that= I am claiming to opine something with no basis (i.e. blind faith)?

2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>=
On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 3:= 46 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
> That being said, if leaving a space out implie= s {zo'e}

Almost always. The exceptions are when leaving out "ke'a&quo= t; and "ce'u".

> and {zo'e} can be
> replaced by anything,

Not really. "zo'e" refers to an obvious or irrelevant v= alue. It can
only be replaced by a blank (sometimes). Anything else will almost
certainly give a more precise meaning. And you certainly can't replace<= br> "zo'e" with something like "no da" for example, whi= ch more or less
reverses "zo'e"'s meaning.
"mi citka zo'e" means I eat, "mi citka no da" means= that I don't.

"ko" refers to the audience, like "do", and if the audi= ence is the
obvious value in some context, you could use "zo'e" instead o= f "do",
but "ko" does more than refer to the audience, it has an addition= al
function which "zo'e" does not have. If you throw in an "= ;e'o", "e'u",
etc. then you could leave out the "ko" because the attitudinal wi= ll
provide that part of "ko"'s function.

Similarly, you can't use "zo'e" instead of "ma"= , because "ma" doesn't
refer to anything, and "zo'e" does, whereas "ma" as= ks for the audience
to respond with something, and "zo'e" doesn't.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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