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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
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Really?  I pronounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a completely
different sound from "b[a]t" I think.  Both of which are different from
"b[i]t".

The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as well, OP.
 But I grew to accept if after realizing that lack of some vowel sounds is
acceptable if it's in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel.
 You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs like
{ai} = "b[i]te", {ei} = "w[a]y", {oi} = "t[oy]", {au} = "h[ow]", etc...

But those actually make sense given the component vowels that make up the
diphthong.  If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} it comes off
sounding like english "ow".

But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my head) 8
fundamental vowel sounds that can't be constructed from diphthongs of other
vowels.  These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]t and
b[i]t.

If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to add new letterals or assign un-used
diphthongs to these two "missing" vowels.  I'd be comfortable with the first
option because it would only expand the potential word space.  But the
second option seems very un-lojbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-nail :)

As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of consonant-like sounds
that didn't make it into lojban.  We can't get them all in there.  I seem to
remember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like "many
languages don't have that sound and it is extremely difficult to pronounce
for people who haven't grown up with it".

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen <
timonator@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote:

> On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote:
> > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in
> > Lojban.
>
> Hello!
>
> Even though I don't know about the criteria for the choices, I hope i
> can help you with this mail.
>
>
> > For instance, why was the German sound used for "x" used, but the
> > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not?
>
> [th] is a valid pronunciation of {'} and the a in bat is a lot like
> lojbans {e}.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e timos
>
> --
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>

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Really? =A0I pronounce lojban {e} as in &quot;b[e]t&quot; which is a comple=
tely different sound from &quot;b[a]t&quot; I think. =A0Both of which are d=
ifferent from &quot;b[i]t&quot;.<div><br></div><div>The choice to leave out=
 some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as well, OP. =A0But I grew to acce=
pt if after realizing that lack of some vowel sounds is acceptable if it&#3=
9;s in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel. =A0You can get SO=
ME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs like {ai} =3D &quot;b=
[i]te&quot;, {ei} =3D &quot;w[a]y&quot;, {oi} =3D &quot;t[oy]&quot;, {au} =
=3D &quot;h[ow]&quot;, etc...</div>
<div><br></div><div>But those actually make sense given the component vowel=
s that make up the diphthong. =A0If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll int=
o {u} it comes off sounding like english &quot;ow&quot;.</div><div><br></di=
v>
<div>But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my he=
ad) 8 fundamental vowel sounds that can&#39;t be constructed from diphthong=
s of other vowels. =A0These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the englis=
h b[a]t and b[i]t.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If we wanted those sounds, we&#39;d have to add new let=
terals or assign un-used diphthongs to these two &quot;missing&quot; vowels=
. =A0I&#39;d be comfortable with the first option because it would only exp=
and the potential word space. =A0But the second option seems very un-lojban=
ic and I&#39;d fight it tooth-and-nail :)</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for the two &quot;th&quot; sounds... well, there are=
 a ton of consonant-like sounds that didn&#39;t make it into lojban. =A0We =
can&#39;t get them all in there. =A0I seem to remember hearing an argument =
against [th]e that went something like &quot;many languages don&#39;t have =
that sound and it is extremely difficult to pronounce for people who haven&=
#39;t grown up with it&quot;.</div>
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo =
Paulssen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:timonator@perpetuum-immobi=
le.de">timonator@perpetuum-immobile.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote:<br>
&gt; I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in<br>
&gt; Lojban.<br>
<br>
</div>Hello!<br>
<br>
Even though I don&#39;t know about the criteria for the choices, I hope i<b=
r>
can help you with this mail.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
&gt; For instance, why was the German sound used for &quot;x&quot; used, bu=
t the<br>
&gt; sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not?<br>
<br>
</div>[th] is a valid pronunciation of {&#39;} and the a in bat is a lot li=
ke<br>
lojbans {e}.<br>
<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e timos<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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