Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhOnw-00087l-Cz; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:58:11 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf3597501ywh.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:58:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=32jghP0vCfH3uAj8zZ8xYi0rfn9LEZGxQJXX2ywxYy8=; b=J4B2qKECV11dUfZjYLJI4/GYcN0jeNjybre2tVnwBlFxR1rbOxqEHH6SraJtlwFRu+ So7tiaZ/JGDgSwkNO1ogqWNFQUBgwcMhatEH0x2swurpcNkFhGSShiS7SMfP6oY36fBx tUPCmt4enjO8YHM9qfbwNUZ8NwyxZ3fNzw/wg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZxzcPH8rvNekTuxy0JKbbV1t3d38rZ0YWZQ7UgvRLWmI0Wc/2hrOo/pQACVUfkLwmg rKR2apdw9TK4Z+SEDnoFQ+5mzYMh1h2d+v2x/B6It3yyvVwxyHXnTHv8mSvWKeJrhob3 43qwzOne/2HmYrhOY9v+Rg8Hh7/O5dFuT90tc= Received: by 10.100.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr164663ani.8.1295884670958; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls4725897ibk.3.p; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.131 with SMTP id o3mr1537370iba.18.1295884670168; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.131 with SMTP id o3mr1537369iba.18.1295884670130; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f170.google.com (mail-iy0-f170.google.com [209.85.210.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j25si3202780ibb.4.2011.01.24.07.57.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.170; Received: by iym14 with SMTP id 14so6133525iym.15 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.59.197 with SMTP id m5mr5004754ibh.25.1295884668891; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:57:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201101231026.58946.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:57:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oh my god, please make it stop, it hurts so much! (was: Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban) From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485e7741c5bf286049a99a9a9 Content-Length: 9136 --001485e7741c5bf286049a99a9a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you might also be right Ivo. I pronounce "pipe" as a one syllable word. If I slow my pronunciation way way down it does come out like p....y....i....p but maybe I'm just shortening the length of the vowel. The paper had a good way of illustrating this phenomenon. In "writer" and "rider" the "t" and "d" are reduced to a flap (I think it was a flap) and s= o the two words are indistinguishable except that since the "i" of "rider" is followed by a voiced consonant it exhibits the "canadian raising" effect. = I don't know how to describe that change in sound. What I do know is that th= e "i" in "writer" and "rider" sounds different to me... at least when I say i= t anyway. On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 23 January 2011 18:04, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I see what you mean now timos about how it's bad idea to talk >> about pronunciations in terms of english words. Just because I pronounc= e >> pie and pipe like {pai} and {pyip} does not mean that all americans do t= he >> same. In fact, according to the abstract in the paper that Oren found, = I >> may very well be in the minority. >> > > You are the first person I've ever heard of who pronounces "pipe" like [= =CB=88p > =C9=99ip]. If you really do pronounce it like you say you do then what yo= u're > saying is a two-syllable word, so are you sure that what you're saying is > not actually [=CB=88p=C9=99jp] or [=CB=88p=C9=99=CB=90jp]? Nevertheless, = a schwa in the > pronunciation of "pipe" is extremely unusual, more so because in English > schwa is never stressed, and the syllable in "pipe" is a stressed > syllable. The usual pronunciation of the word is [=CB=88pajp] or [=CB=88p= a=CB=90jp]. > > > Well, I'm off to learn IPA >> > > A good idea. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --001485e7741c5bf286049a99a9a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you might also be right Ivo. =C2=A0I pronounce "pipe" as = a one syllable word. =C2=A0If I slow my=C2=A0pronunciation=C2=A0way way dow= n it does come out like p....y....i....p but maybe I'm just shortening = the length of the vowel.

The paper had a good way of illustrating this phenomenon. = =C2=A0In "writer" and "rider" the "t" and &qu= ot;d" are reduced to a flap (I think it was a flap) and so the two wor= ds are indistinguishable except that since the "i" of "rider= " is followed by a voiced=C2=A0consonant=C2=A0it exhibits the "ca= nadian raising" effect. =C2=A0I don't know how to describe that ch= ange in sound. =C2=A0What I do know is that the "i" in "writ= er" and "rider" sounds different to me... at least when I sa= y it anyway.

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Ivo Doko <= span dir=3D"ltr"><ivo.doko@gmail.c= om> wrote:
On 23 January 2011 18:04, Luke= Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I see what you mean now timos about how it's bad idea to talk about=C2= =A0pronunciations=C2=A0in terms of english words. =C2=A0Just because I pron= ounce pie and pipe like {pai} and {pyip} does not mean that all americans d= o the same. =C2=A0In fact, according to the abstract in the paper that Oren= found, I may very well be in the minority.

You are the first person I've ever he= ard of who pronounces "pipe" like [=CB= =88p=C9=99ip]= . If you really do pronounce it like you say you do then what you're sa= ying is a two-syllable word, so are you sure that what you're saying is= not actually [=CB=88p=C9= =99jp] or [=CB=88p=C9=99=CB=90jp]? Neverthele= ss, a schwa in the pronunciation of "pipe" is extremely unusual, = more so because in English schwa is never stressed, and the syllable in &q= uot;pipe" is a stressed syllable. The usual pronunciation of the word = is [=CB=88pajp] or= [=CB=88pa=CB=90<= span title=3D"Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)">= jp].
=C2=A0

Well, I'm off to learn IPA

A good idea.
=

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