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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:49 -0700
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] days of the week
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On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:

> These are all -religious- concepts putting the sabbath as the last numbered
> day of the week. Sadly, the secular world starts on Monday, and Lojban is a
> secular language. We've not arrived at a single conclusion, but we have what
> I've seen to be four main options.
>
> 1. Stick to the classic {pavdei} and just deal with the fact that it looks
> retarded ('oneday' rather than 'firstday').
>

Thanks to some very intelligent remarks by .xorxes., I dislike this method
because {pa djedi} is "one full day", not "first day of week".


> 2. Use the more sensible {pavmomdei}.
>

Again, for the same reason, I dislike this ({pamoi djedi} = "1st full day"),
and this also has the additional disadvantage of adding another syllable.


> 3. Use {pavdetri} as perhaps a more specific meaning.
>

This doesn't work, IMO, because pavdetri is January 1st. Or at the very
least, the first day of the current month.


> 4. Use some kind of naming scheme (that is not a direct translation of any
> natural language weekday name. Many of the existing proposals are translated
> from the French/English where they aren't based on the name of a God, and
> Japanese for those days which couldn't be taken from the former).
>

I don't like this for purely personal reasons relating to the complete lack
of intuitiveness and logic in such a scheme.


> Unless we have some rational alternate option, I think we should vote on
> one of these four in a last-man-standing kind of tournament. Vote on all
> four, the one least liked gets dropped, rinse, repeat.
>

My suggestion for alternates (I'll let lo jbopre decide if they are
rational), in order of preference:

Create the following two gismu and one lujvo:
"donla  do'a  x1 is the x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under
calendar/system x5" {pavdo'a} = "Monday", etc.
"mazla  maz  x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/system x4"
{pavmazla} = "January", etc.
"mazdo'a  d1=x1 is the d2=x2th day of month number m1=x3 of year d4=m4=x3,
under calendar/system d5=m5=x5"

Lujvo or, better, zi'evla for week-day-X (i.e. based on {jeftu djedi ma'u})

.djeXXX. (ex. {.djepav.}), although doing so would require merging cmevla
and brivla grammatically.

djeXX (ex. djepa), although doing so means creating su'oze gismu

(All but the lujvo/zi'evla for "week-day-X" are in the topic I recently
linked.)

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do
zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--0023547c984796dd4c049ab6ff55
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Lindar =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com">lindartheb=
ard@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; padding-left: 1ex;">
These are all -religious- concepts putting the sabbath as the last numbered=
 day of the week. Sadly, the secular world starts on Monday, and Lojban is =
a secular language. We&#39;ve not arrived at a single conclusion, but we ha=
ve what I&#39;ve seen to be four main options.<div>
<br></div><div>1. Stick to the classic {pavdei} and just deal with the fact=
 that it looks retarded (&#39;oneday&#39; rather than &#39;firstday&#39;).<=
/div></blockquote><div><br>Thanks to some very intelligent remarks by .xorx=
es., I dislike this method because {pa djedi} is &quot;one full day&quot;, =
not &quot;first day of week&quot;.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>2. =
Use the more sensible {pavmomdei}.</div></blockquote><div><br>Again, for th=
e same reason, I dislike this ({pamoi djedi} =3D &quot;1st full day&quot;),=
 and this also has the additional disadvantage of adding another syllable.<=
br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>3. =
Use {pavdetri} as perhaps a more specific meaning.</div></blockquote><div><=
br>
This doesn&#39;t work, IMO, because pavdetri is January 1st. Or at the very=
 least, the first day of the current month.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>4. Use some kind of naming scheme (that is not a direct translation of=
 any natural language weekday name. Many of the existing proposals are tran=
slated from the French/English where they aren&#39;t based on the name of a=
 God, and Japanese for those days which couldn&#39;t be taken from the form=
er).</div>
</blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t like this for purely personal reasons rel=
ating to the complete lack of intuitiveness and logic in such a scheme.<br>=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div></div><div>Unless we have some rational alternate option, I think we s=
hould vote on one of these four in a last-man-standing kind of tournament. =
Vote on all four, the one least liked gets dropped, rinse, repeat.</div>
</blockquote><div><br>My suggestion for alternates (I&#39;ll let lo jbopre =
decide if they are rational), in order of preference:<br></div></div><br>Cr=
eate the following two gismu and one lujvo:<br>&quot;donla=A0 do&#39;a=A0 x=
1 is the=20
x2th day of week number x3 of year x4, under calendar/system x5&quot;=20
{pavdo&#39;a} =3D &quot;Monday&quot;, etc. <br>
&quot;mazla=A0 maz=A0 x1 is the x2th month of year x3, under calendar/syste=
m x4&quot; {pavmazla} =3D &quot;January&quot;, etc.<br>
&quot;mazdo&#39;a=A0 d1=3Dx1 is the d2=3Dx2th day of month number m1=3Dx3 o=
f year d4=3Dm4=3Dx3, under calendar/system d5=3Dm5=3Dx5&quot; <br><br>Lujvo=
 or, better, zi&#39;evla for week-day-X (i.e. based on {jeftu djedi ma&#39;=
u})<br><br>
.djeXXX. (ex. {.djepav.}), although doing so would require merging cmevla a=
nd brivla grammatically.<br><br>djeXX (ex. djepa), although doing so means =
creating su&#39;oze gismu<br><br>(All but the lujvo/zi&#39;evla for &quot;w=
eek-day-X&quot; are in the topic I recently linked.)<br clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.a&#39;o.e&#39;e ko cmima le=
 bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to=
 the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



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