On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:22 AM, Stela Selck= iku <selckiku@gm= ail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote: >

> Is there a way to use something more precise t= han {co'e} in the second
> phrase without sacrificing much conciseness?

Once something is inside of an abstraction it tends to become
difficult to extract it again. =A0This would be quite difficult to solve in the general case even if you were tinkering with the language. =A0You might make a special purpose tool to dig things out of one level of
abstraction, but then add another level of abstraction and you're lost<= br> again! =A0A better solution than making confusing complicated tools for
climbing out of abstractions is to try not to dig yourself into that
hole in the first place. :) =A0For instance:

.i la .loglan. zasti .i mi tcidu cilre lo du'u go'i .i ba za bo go&= #39;i
lo du'u la .lojban. go'e

Also, don't underestimate the usefulness of {cei}. =A0It rarely comes i= n
handy translating how you would say things in another language,
because other languages don't have that power. =A0But if you get used t= o
using {cei} it allows you to express things very concisely in a
different, Lojbanic way. =A0You're not used to being able to build a complex description of a relation and then keep it handy, applying it
again & again. =A0In other languages once you've built something yo= u
only have a moment to make repeated use of it with "it" or "= that" and
then it fades. =A0In Lojban you can make long-term plans, stocking up an arsenal of concepts useful in the story you're telling. =A0For instance= :

.i mi cilre cei broda lo du'u zasti kei lo bangu fu lo nu tcidu .i
broda fi la .loglan. .i ba za bo broda fi la .lojban.

That's reasonably concise, but you've also created a potent tool.(*= )
Now you can say later "ca lo nu broda fi la .lojban. kei ku li'o&q= uot;
(when I did that to Lojban, blah blah blah), except the "that" is= n't
subject to being confused by every possible referent that comes along.

.i broda fi la'o .bangu. Esperanto .bangu. goi .e bu pu lo nu broda fi<= br> la .lojban. goi ly. .i ca bo broda so'i da .e bu .i ba lo nu broda fi ly. kei mi co'a broda so'i da ly. gi'e broda so'u po'o = da .e bu

(I learned about Esperanto before I learned about Lojban. =A0Back then I learned lots about Esperanto. =A0After I learned about Lojban, I started to learn lots about Lojban and only a little about Esperanto.)

If you think translating into Lojban is challenging, try translating
back out of it after you're juggling a bunch of pro-sumti and
pro-bridi! :)

mi'e .selkik. mu'o

(*) You could make it even more potent by changing "cilre" to &qu= ot;se te
se cilre" and leaving off the "fi" everywhere, but I decided= to leave
in the "fi" so as not to confuse you with too many tricks at once= !!

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