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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:05:01 -0500
Message-ID: <AANLkTim=1ktZ+3oazF2J99eo3-kj5nNcvpC1k3+EDXUy@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu valsi rapli cu xe tanru fo ma
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:39 AM, .alyn.post.
<alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> Will you help clarify some confusion I'm having, then?:
>
> lo mamta =A0 =A0=3D> mother
(a/some mothers)
> lo se mamta =3D> child =A0(not quite the right gloss, I don't think that
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 matters in this case)
(child of a mother)
> mamta =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D> mothering/motherness?
>

    No.  "mamta" is not "mothering/motherness" That would be "ka
mamta".  "mamta" is a relationship.  Something m1 is the mother of
something else, m2.

> lo ponse =A0 =A0=3D> owner
an owner/some owners
> lo se ponse =3D> possesion
Yes, if you mean that as a noun -- a possession/some possessions.
> ponse =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D> possessing/ownership?

  No.  That would be nu ponse, or ka ponse, or za'i ponse, depending
on how you mean it.   Again, it's a relationship.  "p1 is the
possessor of p2 under law p3"

>
> I don't quite get how one gets grandmother out of mamymamta, though
> I've confused the special significance that an x1 place has before.
>
> It seems in this case though that mamymamta either takes one meaning
> for the first mam (mothering) and another meaning for the second
> (mother), or that my gloss for mamta is wrong and it doesn't express
> motherness at all, but an actual mother.
>
> What am not understanding?
>

  Remember that a tanru, "x1 mamta mamta x2", means that x1 is a
mother type of mother of x2.  The exact relationship between the
seltau and the tertau is up to the user.  Just like a "barda gerku" is
a "big type of dog" (presumably a big dog, "ko'a cu barda je gerku",
but maybe, for example, a type of dog that a big person would own
("ko'a me lo gerku da'i po lo barda")) or a "gerku ponse" is a "dog
type of owner", presumably a dog owner ("ko'a cu ponse lo gerku") but
possibly describing my dog up above ("ko'a cu gerku je ponse"), or
possibly some other type of relationship ("ko'a ponse fi tu'a lo
gerku", he possess things the way a dog thinks about possession (i.e.
it's here, it's mine).  So a mamta mamta is most probably "ko'a cu
mamta lo mamta", but it could also be many other things)).  But once
you lujvoize it, it has only one meaning, the one the author defines,
which in this case is exactly that meaning.  "x1 is the mother of x2,
who is the mother x3"

  Have I helped clear up anything?

> -Alan
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 09:26:02AM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:
>> =A0 =A0that makes the most sense to me.. although my first thought when =
I saw
>> =A0 =A0{ponse ponse} was something like {ba'e ponse}... not that I know =
what the
>> =A0 =A0difference between {ponse} and {ba'e ponse} is but... that was my=
 first
>> =A0 =A0thought. (though as I said, I do like gejyspa's interpretation be=
tter).
>>
>> =A0 =A0On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> =A0 =A0<[1]mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0An owner of an owner, I suppose...
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0lo mi gerku cu ponse lo bolci .iseni'ibo mi ponse ponse
>> =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>> =A0 =A0 =A0On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Pierre Abbat <[2]phma@phma.o=
ptus.nu>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:44:22 .alyn.post. wrote:
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>> .i fo ma fu lo nu valsi rapli cu tanru .i lu ponse ponse l=
i'u mupli
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>> What does word doubling mean in a tanru? For example: {pon=
se
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>> ponse}
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> "klakyklaku klakyklaku klaku" is used in The Restaurant of =
Many Orders
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> for "cried and cried and cried and cried and cried". "mamym=
amta"
>> =A0 =A0 =A0(lujvo jenai
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> tanru) means "maternal grandmother", and similarly "pafpatf=
u". I'm not
>> =A0 =A0 =A0sure
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> what "ponse ponse" would mean.
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> Pierre
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'=
m in Wales.
>> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
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>
> --
> .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
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