Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PlPwh-0002rk-9G; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:51 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf1631937gxk.16 for ; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=RMxO8O99G0VrsNqNHUAbSg2YGdj3/ZGkQ7DBcspD6+o=; b=mw71Holog7MqvNkAGr5W8i3GA91YeyKh6tZt3jFDJn8VhdFklL271g2i2scD5mK8Ia xBa0rqWdNaQIX1oVqXPpwEhnjvRY8Ibeu3m8uH2meirnN25dGuZ/hrvnZdku3JA16SxF HhmVuGEYoDCrYnKDFOgDSCsSJcsiEDwf7LiIk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=V/muy+iP/YwxyPGtkPU/Uks7XugITarpZz7Sfjij2iycnUHKc8qwGsGwcgpul1gKcm z9o6wvudMXJioRTVB9uNRLBgqSCElAux4Ai33T1g18z8/1/Xf5SYGDhyI6gFa73Us5tX uR7F8bNM4DPMIIfOIZd9cy9L3DUwXsZ2bQbUo= Received: by 10.150.202.12 with SMTP id z12mr1252770ybf.81.1296842369856; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls800789ibh.0.p; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.30.202 with SMTP id v10mr5570480ibc.4.1296842369033; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.30.202 with SMTP id v10mr5570479ibc.4.1296842369005; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f174.google.com (mail-iy0-f174.google.com [209.85.210.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu19si195716ibb.5.2011.02.04.09.59.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.210.174 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.210.174; Received: by iyj18 with SMTP id 18so2382369iyj.19 for ; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.32.140 with SMTP id c12mr13409414ibd.74.1296842368629; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-165-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.165.60]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u9sm823704ibe.2.2011.02.04.09.59.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:59:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:59:22 -0700 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] elidable terminator discussion in CLL? Message-ID: <20110204175922.GB59178@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com References: <20110204152630.GA59178@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.210.174 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Length: 3862 I've added basically this note to the Suggestions for CLL, second edition page. Thank you for confirming it doesn't exist in the CLL. -Alan On Fri, Feb 04, 2011 at 11:48:29AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I don't believer either actually exists. The first reference to a > terminator being elidable is Chapter 5.5 (and here ke'e isn't associated > with the word "terminator"). The first use of the word terminator is in > 5.7 with be'o. Nor is is explicitly stated anywhere (that I've seen) the > entire general concept that many grammatical in lojban are introduced with > a cmavo, and closed with a terminator that may be elided under certain > circumstance (Such as there being a terminator from an enclosing group, > which implicitly terminates all internal groups that have not been > terminated). It would probably be a good idea to include sucha conept in > the CLL in English, but I don't think it exists. Probably Computer Science > people such as me never noticed this lack, because it seems intuitively > obvious to our mindset, but yeah, it should definitely be stated somwhere. > (the end of Chapter 19 is as close as it comes, but yeah, basically, just > a list, and obviously, the general concepts should probably be introduced > earlier) > --gejyspa > > On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:26 AM, .alyn.post. > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > The CLL frequently uses the phrase "elidable terminator." I'm > looking for a place in the book where this phrase is defined, > and preferably also a formal statement that elidable terminators > bind to their closest marker: > > to to toi => (to (to toi)) > lu lu li'u => (lu (lu li'u)) > > Is true, whereas: > > to to toi => (to (to) toi) > lu lu li'u => (lu (lu) li'u) > > Is incorrect. > > Can someone point me to the chapter where this concept is discussed? > It is indirectly discussed all over the place, for specific > terminators, but I can't seem to find the principle described > anywhere. > > I'm aware of the list of elidable terminators: > > [2]http://dag.github.com/cll/19/17/ > > But that page does not discuss usage or define them. > > -Alan > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to > [3]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [4]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 2. http://dag.github.com/cll/19/17/ > 3. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > 4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.