Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PlUJc-0004aq-0q; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:48 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf1765318gwb.16 for ; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3Z5ejrN3mELNqenhhK1hEbHvzOz/3CNIKbEHAo03lOk=; b=RAxDDgriSb38K7KaX13tGO0emtZAdaolJeVr4Q+ep9C3ziqILi/iHMluV06NAN4iZP dpZfUHBdmZ8XmzN8In0oi85WFgEvHc1VESPfiw6yGW3NCBaGkhZhJHh07aJ+TCdwYDCH DtaYZSL06Je2S2giMwRgMGxDJsjg7RsSPQ+9Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=noDvuCnrCoI77YLqLEtLe9QOk2RcQXSBjnzwHdUzKPJq8KES6/RGcw1JUTUrtiGwuy gRpiMEpyFFNnDDEvN/eISRnQ4ULoMMCzUampAp7+UM+Uo6IqCsdxwyrzXlAuEuWTAIlM egqc6tWNZd1q2vDvtIay1MqnNJVogr4Ebuz48= Received: by 10.90.120.14 with SMTP id s14mr279789agc.16.1296859167252; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls1005774ibh.0.p; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.14.67 with SMTP id f3mr5887514iba.15.1296859166173; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.14.67 with SMTP id f3mr5887513iba.15.1296859166135; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f179.google.com (mail-iw0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si237388ibq.7.2011.02.04.14.39.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by mail-iw0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 12so2778167iwb.38 for ; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.241.6 with SMTP id lc6mr14843757icb.480.1296859164926; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.166.202 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 14:39:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3794527.1160.1296844129707.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prnp16> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 17:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Friends will be friends From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30564257d9656a049b7c8df8 Content-Length: 10074 --20cf30564257d9656a049b7c8df8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The degree of tautology in English seems to me acceptable, because there is additional meaning behind the verb phrase "to be a friend". It is [almost, now that xorlo is in effect] definitionally true that {lo broda cu broda}; perhaps "friends behave as typical good friends"? On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Yeah, the english sounds tautolgical to me. But that's not necessarily a > bad thing. Sometimes we use tautologies to pull the familiarity away from a > word that has come to almost be a name. "people are people", "haters gonna > hate". "lo pendo cu pendo" sounds to me like "friends are friends" which > seems like the intent is to remind us that {lo pendo} is not {la pendo} ;) > > > On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> The reason I care is because I'm playing around with the thought of doing >> some translations of songs I like, and one of them is "Friends Will Be >> Friends" by Queen. >> >> The refrain is: >> Its so easy love cos you got friends you can trust >> Friends will be friends >> When you're in need of love they give you care and attention >> Friends will be friends >> When you're through with life and all hope is lost >> Hold out your hands cos friends will be friends right till the >> End >> >> It does say what it means by "friends will be friends", making the English >> sound fine, but the lojban still sounds {mucte lo ka malgli}, but I think >> the line is important enough to try to translate literally at least to some >> extent. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Lindar wrote: >> >>> I can't exactly pin down what this is meant to imply. It sounds >>> tautological in English, but more so in Lojban. I read it as "A friend is >>> going to be a friend.", which is why you should never ever ever ever ever >>> translate words or phrases; you should translate meanings. Are you trying to >>> state that one cannot prevent friends from being friends? If so, why not >>> just say what you mean? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf30564257d9656a049b7c8df8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The degree of tautology in English seems to me acceptable, because there is= additional meaning behind the verb phrase "to be a friend".
<= br>It is [almost, now that xorlo is in effect] definitionally true that {lo= broda cu broda}; perhaps "friends behave as typical good friends"= ;?

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Luke Bergen = <lukeabergen@= gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, the english sounds tautolgical to me. =A0But that's not necessari= ly a bad thing. =A0Sometimes we use tautologies to pull the familiarity awa= y from a word that has come to almost be a name. =A0"people are people= ", "haters gonna hate". =A0"lo pendo cu pendo" sou= nds to me like "friends are friends" which seems like the intent = is to remind us that {lo pendo} is not {la pendo} ;)


On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Alex Rozensh= teyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
The reason I care is because I'm playing around with the thought of=20 doing some translations of songs I like, and one of them is "Friends= =20 Will Be Friends" by Queen.

The refrain is:
Its so easy love = cos you got friends you can trust
Friends will be friends
When you= 9;re in need of love they give you care and attention
Friends will be fr= iends
When you're through with life and all hope is lost
Hold out your han= ds cos friends will be friends right till the
End

It does say what it means by "friends will be friends", makin= g the English sound fine, but the lojban still sounds {mucte lo ka malgli},= but I think the line is important enough to try to translate literally at = least to some extent.



On Fri, F= eb 4, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
I can't exactly pin down what this is meant to imply. It sounds tautolo= gical in English, but more so in Lojban. I read it as "A friend is goi= ng to be a friend.", which is why you should never ever ever ever ever= translate words or phrases; you should translate meanings. Are you trying = to state that one cannot prevent friends from being friends? If so, why not= just say what you mean?

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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