Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqRQj-0007dM-HH; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:37 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf9961298qwd.16 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qgESjt5T9C7L9OgfvyxOESuuNhhdyw5gW/mEp0iGS9Y=; b=pc/8mKwll/ja/B8euJmhYzVFYXdf18Ok1DvOG9oOGS3XBt0PZZvzD4Kzxxdv8kQJ+G 3t+YxtppnkWy0mMGOOjK+qQ1aPyYOn2XFl8RFt8szksmRIa+HTTkDwNlSRsROu3009AN XPJcwaBqi1GIJ8rfw1gGcfuiCwUL8T7rNacz0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=LmEGiL2K2mmNkMvcl5oNocr9okLms74Pfy0Zb1ouvz5MZlT5QcfnTNBmpV5EuCGhGk gL4/IjuxaUvmpR0eCQ6bxZVYH2ipR94pkJ0kB5Jcde9Ej3qVCEhJ0zHPF2iSoRainJvK uNjG29/OV4tkn6S/szE4epStkCgtWpJSbniEg= Received: by 10.229.105.98 with SMTP id s34mr169954qco.0.1298039716805; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:16 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.195.134 with SMTP id ec6ls1261965qcb.2.p; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.83.196 with SMTP id g4mr63009qcl.3.1298039716105; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.83.196 with SMTP id g4mr63007qcl.3.1298039716067; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f170.google.com (mail-qy0-f170.google.com [209.85.216.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s6si444448qco.13.2011.02.18.06.35.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.170; Received: by mail-qy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 10so432142qyk.1 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.233.19 with SMTP id jw19mr603943qcb.24.1298039714728; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.73.148 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:35:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b8b7019cbcc049c8f6c80 Content-Length: 5338 --0016363b8b7019cbcc049c8f6c80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 17 February 2011 15:58:43 .arpis. wrote: > > I was aware that {roda} isn't restricted to people or physical objects, > but > > it's difficult to express that in English. > > > > It's interesting that you refer to a "universe of discourse". Not having > > any strong background in linguistics, philosophy, or logic, I don't know > > what precisely this means, but it seems like it's what I'm thinking > about. > > > > In English, when I say "Everyone's going home.", I am first of all > probably > > exaggerating but second of all I really mean "Everyone [of the set who > > isn't me in the relevant location] is going home". It's like I said > "roda > > [poi co'e] cu cliva". > > > > Does the universe of discourse always consist of all things that can > > possibly be talked about? > > No. Suppose five people meet at my house and we discuss computers and also > mention each other. As the conversation winds down, I say "ro da cu > zdakla". "ro da" refers to both computers and the five of us, but does not > include the planet Saturn or a unicorn. I could say "ro zo'e cu zdakla", > leaving it up to the listener to grice what "zo'e" refers to. > > Pierre I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existential variables. If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other mechanism, "ro da" MUST refer to everything, talked about or not. I would prefer "ro zo'e" or even "lo romei" to unqualified "ro da" if you are only talking about somethings in the universe. The purpose of "da" is to make existential claims, and youundercut that if you use it for something else. (So yes, "ro prenu cu xebni mi" and not "roda xebni mi" for "everybody hates me") --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016363b8b7019cbcc049c8f6c80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.n= u> wrote:
On Thursday 17 February 2011 15:58:43 .arpis. wrote:
&= gt; I was aware that {roda} isn't restricted to people or physical obje= cts, but
> it's difficult to express that in English.
>
> It's interesting that you refer to a "universe of discourse&q= uot;. =A0Not having
> any strong background in linguistics, philosoph= y, or logic, I don't know
> what precisely this means, but it see= ms like it's what I'm thinking about.
>
> In English, when I say "Everyone's going home.",= I am first of all probably
> exaggerating but second of all I really= mean "Everyone [of the set who
> isn't me in the relevant l= ocation] is going home". =A0It's like I said "roda
> [poi co'e] cu cliva".
>
> Does the universe of di= scourse always consist of all things that can
> possibly be talked ab= out?

No. Suppose five people meet at my house and we discuss c= omputers and also
mention each other. As the conversation winds down, I say "ro da cuzdakla". "ro da" refers to both computers and the five of u= s, but does not
include the planet Saturn or a unicorn. I could say &quo= t;ro zo'e cu zdakla",
leaving it up to the listener to grice what "zo'e" refers to.=

Pierre
=A0
=A0 I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existenti= al variables.=A0 If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other m= echanism,=A0"ro da" MUST refer to everything, talked about or not= .=A0 I would prefer "ro zo'e" or even "lo romei" to= unqualified "ro da" if you are only talking about somethings in = the universe.=A0 The purpose of "da" is to make existential claim= s, and youundercut that if you use it for something else. (So yes, "ro= prenu cu xebni mi" and not "roda xebni mi" for "everyb= ody hates me")
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

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