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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:05:06 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda}
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That makes sense.  {ro} should behave the same for both: {ro prenu cu xebni
mi} and {ro flira cu spati}.

If you want to restrict the {ro} of something you can always use an inner
quantifier right?  {ro lo ci prenu cu xebni mi}.  Or a tanru which also
effectively restricts the {ro} by means of narrowing what it is that you ar=
e
taking "all" of.  {ro lo srana prenu cu xebni mi}.

ta'o over the past couple of days I've begun to realize that {srana} can be
an absurdly handy word for when you feel like being lazy and vague but stil=
l
want to be grammatical.  Don't want to talk about all the dogs in the world=
?
 No problem, just throw a {srana} in there and it's like a big flashing
light saying "you know what I'm talking about".  It's like the
selbri/tanru-ing equivalent of {tu'a} or something.

2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existential
> > variables.  If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other
> > mechanism, "ro da" MUST refer to everything, talked about or not.  I
> would
> > prefer "ro zo'e" or even "lo romei" to unqualified "ro da" if you are
> only
> > talking about somethings in the universe.  The purpose of "da" is to ma=
ke
> > existential claims, and youundercut that if you use it for something
> else.
> > (So yes, "ro prenu cu xebni mi" and not "roda xebni mi" for "everybody
> hates
> > me")
>
> But when someone says "everybody hates me" they usually don't mean to
> include themselves, or people who have never heard of them. There's
> usually some implicit restriction involved in the context: "everybody
> relevant to what I'm saying". Not every person who has ever lived, or
> ever will live or ever could live, or imaginary persons, or persons
> that perhaps exist in another planet, or... So if you think that "ro
> da" is bad because it is too general, then "ro prenu" is just as bad,
> since a mere restriction to people is nowhere near enough.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
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>

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That makes sense. =A0{ro} should behave the same for both: {ro prenu cu xeb=
ni mi} and {ro flira cu spati}.<div><br></div><div>If you want to restrict =
the {ro} of something you can always use an inner quantifier right? =A0{ro =
lo ci prenu cu xebni mi}. =A0Or a tanru which also effectively restricts th=
e {ro} by means of narrowing what it is that you are taking &quot;all&quot;=
 of. =A0{ro lo srana prenu cu xebni mi}.</div>

<div><br></div><div>ta&#39;o over the past couple of days I&#39;ve begun to=
 realize that {srana} can be an absurdly handy word for when you feel like =
being lazy and vague but still want to be grammatical. =A0Don&#39;t want to=
 talk about all the dogs in the world? =A0No problem, just throw a {srana} =
in there and it&#39;s like a big flashing light saying &quot;you know what =
I&#39;m talking about&quot;. =A0It&#39;s like the selbri/tanru-ing=A0equiva=
lent=A0of {tu&#39;a} or something.</div>

<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div class=3D"im">On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Michael Turniansky<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existenti=
al<br>
&gt; variables.=A0 If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other=
<br>
&gt; mechanism,=A0&quot;ro da&quot; MUST refer to everything, talked about =
or not.=A0 I would<br>
&gt; prefer &quot;ro zo&#39;e&quot; or even &quot;lo romei&quot; to unquali=
fied &quot;ro da&quot; if you are only<br>
&gt; talking about somethings in the universe.=A0 The purpose of &quot;da&q=
uot; is to make<br>
&gt; existential claims, and youundercut that if you use it for something e=
lse.<br>
&gt; (So yes, &quot;ro prenu cu xebni mi&quot; and not &quot;roda xebni mi&=
quot; for &quot;everybody hates<br>
&gt; me&quot;)<br>
<br>
</div>But when someone says &quot;everybody hates me&quot; they usually don=
&#39;t mean to<br>
include themselves, or people who have never heard of them. There&#39;s<br>
usually some implicit restriction involved in the context: &quot;everybody<=
br>
relevant to what I&#39;m saying&quot;. Not every person who has ever lived,=
 or<br>
ever will live or ever could live, or imaginary persons, or persons<br>
that perhaps exist in another planet, or... So if you think that &quot;ro<b=
r>
da&quot; is bad because it is too general, then &quot;ro prenu&quot; is jus=
t as bad,<br>
since a mere restriction to people is nowhere near enough.<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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