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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:44:53 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] translation check on zo-related quote
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> The problem appears when broda and brode don't have parallel place
>> structures. Does "blanu je zdani" make sense? Is "ta blanu je zdani
>> mi" the same as "ta blanu mi .ije ta zdani mi"? Is "ta melbi je nixli
>> li so" the same as "ta melbi li so .ije ta nixli li so"? ("blanu je
>> zdani" and "melbi je nixli" are examples in CLL, but only the x1 is
>> considered.)
>
> =A0 Yes, those are precisely what they mean.=A0 I don't understand your p=
roblem
> with something being nonsensical/non-grammatical.

It's grammatical, and I don't have a problem with grammatical nonsense.

> =A0 Saying "ta melbi li so" is as nonsensical as "ta melbi je nixli li so=
".

OK, but then isn't "ta melbi je nixli" equally nonsensical? Or does it
become sensical when you don't give an explicit value for x2? Or does
"melbi je nixli" not have an x2? Are JA-tanru like lujvo, whose place
structure cannot be worked out from the place structures of the
components?

> If you have a problem with the latter, then you have a problem with the
> former.=A0 As well you should!=A0 It's up to the SPEAKER to make sure tha=
t
> something makes sense.=A0 If you are going to say, for example,
> "logically-connect tanru with more than one place should be disallowed
> because you can sometimes put things in the x2 place that make no sense"
> then you should also say "using the word 'melbi' should be disallowed,
> because you can sometimes put things inteh x2 place that don't make sense=
".

How many arguments does the tanru "melbi je nixli" have, and what is
the relationship that "melbi je nixli" expresses among its argumens?
Are you saying that "melbi je nixli" is a one-argument predicate?

> Don't throw out a sueful construction/interpretation just because sometim=
es
> you can say nonsensical/non-grammatical=A0=A0things with it (and here btw=
, I'm
> using "non-grammatical" in the sense of "using sumti that don't match the
> specific types called for by the gismu).

I'm not throwing anything out, all I'm saying is that I don't know the
meaning of "broda JA brode" when the place structures of broda and
brode are not parallel. What is the type of sumti that "melbi je
nixli" calls for its second argument? Or, does it even have a second
argument place?

Maybe the answer has to be that the place structure of "broda je
brode" cannot be determined in general, and it has to be defined on a
case by case basis, like the place structures of lujvo.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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