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Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:57:31 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda}
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> And if {roda} CAN be limited based on context, could one ever be certain
> that they were getting the message across that "yes, in this case I really
> am talking about EVERYTHING (in the lojbanic sense, not just material
> things)"?


It seems to me that we are assuming that "the lojbanic sense" should be the
same as "the mathematical logic sense" while I'm suggesting that we should
evaluate the lojbanic constructs based on their use in human communication.


> it does seem like if we start letting vagueness get into {roda} it would be
> a hard concept to get back.  If {roda} were context dependent, how would one
> express the {roda} that gejyspa is advocating for?
>

  The easiest, quick&dirty solution that come to my mind is to mandate that
an unboud {di} is NOT context dependent while {da} and {de} might be context
dependent. The "EVERYTHING" in logic sense   $\forall x : isapple(x)$ would
be {rodi plise}. I don't particularly like it, but it seems rather harmless
to me.

 I mean that the case when "all" is bound from the context is much more
common than the case where it means "EVERYTHING".
 Note how we have to use the uppercase trick to specify we do not mean the
usual "everything" but a specific "everything" whose meaning, by the way, is
specified by the context of the discussion we are having.

  The most common usage should be easy (the usual {da} or {de}) while the
less common usage should be a little more tricky (the semantic meaning of
{di}). Of course you only need one "EVERYTHING" (otherwise it wouldn't be
"EVERYTHING") so {di} should suffice.

  .remod.

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<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Luke Bergen=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com">lukeabergen=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
And if {roda} CAN be limited based on context, could one ever be certain th=
at they were getting the message across that &quot;yes, in this case I real=
ly am talking about EVERYTHING (in the lojbanic sense, not just material th=
ings)&quot;?</blockquote>
<div> <br>It seems to me that we are assuming that=20
&quot;the lojbanic sense&quot; should be the same as &quot;the mathematical=
 logic sense&quot;=20
while I&#39;m suggesting that we should evaluate the lojbanic constructs=20
based on their use in human communication.<br>=A0<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px soli=
d rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>it does seem like if we star=
t letting vagueness get into {roda} it would be a hard concept to get back.=
 =A0If {roda} were context dependent, how would one express the {roda} that=
 gejyspa is advocating for? </div>
</blockquote><div><br>=A0 The easiest, quick&amp;dirty solution that come t=
o my mind is to mandate that an unboud {di} is NOT context dependent while =
{da} and {de} might be context dependent. The &quot;EVERYTHING&quot; in log=
ic sense=A0=A0 $\forall x : isapple(x)$ would be {rodi plise}. I don&#39;t =
particularly like it, but it seems rather harmless to me.=A0 <br>
<br>=A0I mean that the case when &quot;all&quot; is bound from the context =
is much more common than the case where it means &quot;EVERYTHING&quot;.<br=
></div></div>=A0Note how we have to use the uppercase trick to specify we d=
o not mean=20
the usual &quot;everything&quot; but a specific &quot;everything&quot; whos=
e meaning, by the way, is=20
specified by the context of the discussion we are having.<br>=A0
<br>=A0 The most common usage should be easy (the usual {da} or {de}) while=
 the less common usage should be a little more tricky (the semantic meaning=
 of {di}). Of course you only need one &quot;EVERYTHING&quot; (otherwise it=
 wouldn&#39;t be &quot;EVERYTHING&quot;) so {di} should suffice.<br>
<br>=A0 .remod.<br><br><br>

<p></p>

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