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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:46:28 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda}
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oh, maybe that's where my confusion lies.  So if I'm a logician and I'm
trying to talk about "for every X if X is human than X is mortal" how would
you do that?  How do you say in a prenex that "ok, {roda} here is actually
everything, our universe of discourse is.... everything".

2011/2/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > My only concern is that if {roda} has an implicite {poi co'e} then I'm
> not
> > sure what you could put in for that {co'e} that gets you back to the
> strong
> > EVERYTHING that logicians want.
>
> What exactly is this strong everything? In Logic there is always a
> domain of discourse for the variables to take their values from. See
> for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantification
>
> "In logic, quantification is the binding of a variable ranging over a
> domain of discourse. The variable thereby becomes bound by an operator
> called a quantifier."
>
> Or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_of_discourse
>
> "In the formal sciences, the domain of discourse, also called the
> universe of discourse (or simply universe), is the set of entities
> over which certain variables of interest in some formal treatment may
> range. The domain of discourse is usually identified in the
> preliminaries, so that there is no need in the further treatment to
> specify each time the range of the relevant variables."
>
> You can't really do quantification without a domain of discourse.
>
> > lojban makes it very easy to narrow a concepts meaning (with tanru, wit=
h
> > poi/noi, with further bridi, etc...), but there are very few ways (none
> that
> > my fever-addled brain can think of at the moment anyway) that expand a
> > concepts meaning.  So if we take something as widely expanded as {ro} a=
nd
> > say "oh, but it's not really universal all the time" then what CAN you
> say
> > that is consistently universal?
>
> "ro" says that the bridi is true for ALL the values in the universe of
> discourse that the variable bound by the quantifier can take. Of
> course it's consistently universal.
>
> The problem seems to be that some people believe that there is some
> absolute universal universe of discourse that includes all possible
> universes of discourse or something like that, but there isn't.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
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>
>

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oh, maybe that&#39;s where my confusion lies. =A0So if I&#39;m a logician a=
nd I&#39;m trying to talk about &quot;for every X if X is human than X is m=
ortal&quot; how would you do that? =A0How do you say in a prenex that &quot=
;ok, {roda} here is actually everything, our universe of discourse is.... e=
verything&quot;.<br>

<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/2/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</=
span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div class=3D"im">On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Luke Bergen &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com">lukeabergen@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; My only concern is that if {roda} has an implicite {poi co&#39;e} then=
 I&#39;m not<br>
&gt; sure what you could put in for that {co&#39;e} that gets you back to t=
he strong<br>
&gt; EVERYTHING that logicians want.<br>
<br>
</div>What exactly is this strong everything? In Logic there is always a<br=
>
domain of discourse for the variables to take their values from. See<br>
for example <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantification" target=
=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantification</a><br>
<br>
&quot;In logic, quantification is the binding of a variable ranging over a<=
br>
domain of discourse. The variable thereby becomes bound by an operator<br>
called a quantifier.&quot;<br>
<br>
Or: <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_of_discourse" target=3D"=
_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_of_discourse</a><br>
<br>
&quot;In the formal sciences, the domain of discourse, also called the<br>
universe of discourse (or simply universe), is the set of entities<br>
over which certain variables of interest in some formal treatment may<br>
range. The domain of discourse is usually identified in the<br>
preliminaries, so that there is no need in the further treatment to<br>
specify each time the range of the relevant variables.&quot;<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t really do quantification without a domain of discourse.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; lojban makes it very easy to narrow a concepts meaning (with tanru, wi=
th<br>
&gt; poi/noi, with further bridi, etc...), but there are very few ways (non=
e that<br>
&gt; my fever-addled brain can think of at the moment anyway) that expand a=
<br>
&gt; concepts meaning. =A0So if we take something as widely expanded as {ro=
} and<br>
&gt; say &quot;oh, but it&#39;s not really universal all the time&quot; the=
n what CAN you say<br>
&gt; that is consistently universal?<br>
<br>
</div>&quot;ro&quot; says that the bridi is true for ALL the values in the =
universe of<br>
discourse that the variable bound by the quantifier can take. Of<br>
course it&#39;s consistently universal.<br>
<br>
The problem seems to be that some people believe that there is some<br>
absolute universal universe of discourse that includes all possible<br>
universes of discourse or something like that, but there isn&#39;t.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">You received this message because y=
ou are subscribed to the Google Groups &quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<=
br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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