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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:26:48 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: BAI zi'o
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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Hmm, so predicates, even without zi'o, are not inextricable from their
places. That's interesting, although it stabs the "lojban has a pure logical
core" thing a bit more than it was already stabbed, since predicates are
functions from n-tuples to truth values in formal logic, and having no x4
for klama means you have no 5-tuple that is related by klama.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> If I say that "mi klama lo zdani lo zarci no da" it does NOT necessarily
> mean that I didn't go home from the store.  It simply means that IF I did,
> I followed no path doing so. I got there by teleporting point-to-point
> ("There is no path X such I went to home from the store along it").  Tagged
> places work exatly the same way
>        --gejyspa
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> That's inconsistent with what you said earlier. That is, if {no da}
>> *really* works the same between both cases, then {lo du'u ko'a broda no da
>> cu nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} and {lo du'u ko'a broda broda TAG no da cu
>> nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} must both be true. I know the former is true;
>> you said the latter is false.
>>
>>
>
>
>>
>> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday 24 February 2011 10:13:11 Ian Johnson wrote:
>>> > That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da}
>>> fills a
>>> > predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a
>>> TAG
>>> > place, it isn't. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate which is
>>> > false when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be
>>> > true?
>>>
>>> "noda" works the same way whether it's in a numbered place or a tagged
>>> place.
>>> Prepositions (including tense markers) can be negated, though, whereas FA
>>> cannot.
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>> --
>>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
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>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>>
>>>
>>  --
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>>
>
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Hmm, so predicates, even without zi&#39;o, are not inextricable from their =
places. That&#39;s interesting, although it stabs the &quot;lojban has a pu=
re logical core&quot; thing a bit more than it was already stabbed, since p=
redicates are functions from n-tuples to truth values in formal logic, and =
having no x4 for klama means you have no 5-tuple that is related by klama. =
<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .latros.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Fe=
b 24, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br>If I say that &quot;mi klama lo zdani lo zarci no da&quot; it does NOT =
necessarily mean that I didn&#39;t go home from the store.=A0 It simply mea=
ns that IF I did,=A0 I followed no path doing so. I got there by teleportin=
g point-to-point (&quot;There is no path X such I went to home from the sto=
re along it&quot;).=A0 Tagged places work exatly the same way <br>

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ian John=
son <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
That&#39;s inconsistent with what you said earlier. That is, if {no da} *re=
ally* works the same between both cases, then {lo du&#39;u ko&#39;a broda n=
o da cu nibli lo du&#39;u ko&#39;a na broda} and {lo du&#39;u ko&#39;a brod=
a broda TAG no da cu nibli lo du&#39;u ko&#39;a na broda} must both be true=
. I know the former is true; you said the latter is false.<div>

<br></div></blockquote><div><br>=A0</div></div></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(=
204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .latros.<br><br></div></div></div><div><div></div><di=
v><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb =
24, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Pierre Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
phma@phma.optus.nu" target=3D"_blank">phma@phma.optus.nu</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>On Thursday 24 February 2011 10:13:11 Ian Johnson wrote:<br>
&gt; That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da} fi=
lls a<br>
&gt; predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a =
TAG<br>
&gt; place, it isn&#39;t. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate whic=
h is<br>
&gt; false when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be=
<br>
&gt; true?<br>
<br>
</div>&quot;noda&quot; works the same way whether it&#39;s in a numbered pl=
ace or a tagged place.<br>
Prepositions (including tense markers) can be negated, though, whereas FA<b=
r>
cannot.<br>
<br>
Pierre<br>
--<br>
I believe in Yellow when I&#39;m in Sweden and in Black when I&#39;m in Wal=
es.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p></div></div>

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</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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