Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PsofO-0000qh-1m; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:48:33 -0800 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf171964pvc.16 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:48:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :x-google-group-id:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UocFHIe1y36VirO+FEDhLt/DYAn2xwS0k1cl13kUveQ=; b=ySOUKmc+IPq84ODB3ohB8EVc1D0Tyv7x3vCudZmsouGwre7Ux5R+2ZaNTbxFe+33Bf fpLcv5+uKHuB5I32kAgItYYVDT98ewj0GGJ4QBSMnxJrXG3vgeEVpfFX1Tz6ZWMp1fCh /pncFRPWHCMMqkeFyjIAJV/VAq+Q7a1bw9/ss= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:x-google-group-id:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=fMmtZr2KccQgDsMs2kEHHKRnPkwmXyo0+1hC2JfFM8YPZ/nar5ZeEVZEjjjS0Hu21I o2Pr2CNEi44Ra+gkM08kkXaFhEQHEgewGaMoX+OD4a2Qbq/kHDxShF5IPbyQYiUnsK6d 5N1XvmzZAdsl3gFgg7rUr94ntjDAEbL7TG1bc= Received: by 10.142.133.4 with SMTP id g4mr117585wfd.49.1298605541721; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.201.17 with SMTP id y17ls1010279wff.1.p; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.191.21 with SMTP id o21mr255223wff.14.1298605540334; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.191.21 with SMTP id o21mr255222wff.14.1298605540295; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f179.google.com (mail-pv0-f179.google.com [74.125.83.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x35si232124wfd.0.2011.02.24.19.45.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.179; Received: by pvf33 with SMTP id 33so192058pvf.10 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.242.2 with SMTP id p2mr1248311wfh.372.1298605540135; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.53.5 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:45:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201102232335.57096.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102241123.58373.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:45:40 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: BAI zi'o From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Google-Group-Id: 94518172 Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14b04ec52ca049d132912 Content-Length: 10539 --000e0cd14b04ec52ca049d132912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 *no 5-tuple that is related by klama which has that x1, x2, x3. On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Hmm, so predicates, even without zi'o, are not inextricable from their > places. That's interesting, although it stabs the "lojban has a pure logical > core" thing a bit more than it was already stabbed, since predicates are > functions from n-tuples to truth values in formal logic, and having no x4 > for klama means you have no 5-tuple that is related by klama. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > >> >> If I say that "mi klama lo zdani lo zarci no da" it does NOT necessarily >> mean that I didn't go home from the store. It simply means that IF I did, >> I followed no path doing so. I got there by teleporting point-to-point >> ("There is no path X such I went to home from the store along it"). Tagged >> places work exatly the same way >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> That's inconsistent with what you said earlier. That is, if {no da} >>> *really* works the same between both cases, then {lo du'u ko'a broda no da >>> cu nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} and {lo du'u ko'a broda broda TAG no da cu >>> nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} must both be true. I know the former is true; >>> you said the latter is false. >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>> >>>> On Thursday 24 February 2011 10:13:11 Ian Johnson wrote: >>>> > That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da} >>>> fills a >>>> > predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a >>>> TAG >>>> > place, it isn't. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate which is >>>> > false when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be >>>> > true? >>>> >>>> "noda" works the same way whether it's in a numbered place or a tagged >>>> place. >>>> Prepositions (including tense markers) can be negated, though, whereas >>>> FA >>>> cannot. >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> -- >>>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --000e0cd14b04ec52ca049d132912 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *no 5-tuple that is related by klama which has that x1, x2, x3.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Hmm, so predicate= s, even without zi'o, are not inextricable from their places. That'= s interesting, although it stabs the "lojban has a pure logical core&q= uot; thing a bit more than it was already stabbed, since predicates are fun= ctions from n-tuples to truth values in formal logic, and having no x4 for = klama means you have no 5-tuple that is related by klama.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Michael Turn= iansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=
If I say that "mi klama lo zdani lo zarci no da" it does NOT = necessarily mean that I didn't go home from the store.=A0 It simply mea= ns that IF I did,=A0 I followed no path doing so. I got there by teleportin= g point-to-point ("There is no path X such I went to home from the sto= re along it").=A0 Tagged places work exatly the same way
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa




=
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ian Johnson <bl= indbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
That's inconsistent with what you said earlier. That is, if {no da} *re= ally* works the same between both cases, then {lo du'u ko'a broda n= o da cu nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} and {lo du'u ko'a brod= a broda TAG no da cu nibli lo du'u ko'a na broda} must both be true= . I know the former is true; you said the latter is false.


=A0

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1= 1:23 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday 24 February 2011 10:13:11 Ian Johnson wrote:
> That seems like a pretty significant irregularity to me; if {no da} fi= lls a
> predicate place, it is as if {na} were put in, but if {no da} fills a = TAG
> place, it isn't. Or is it that {broda TAG} is a new predicate whic= h is
> false when {broda TAG no da} is true even though {broda} itself may be=
> true?

"noda" works the same way whether it's in a numbered pl= ace or a tagged place.
Prepositions (including tense markers) can be negated, though, whereas FA cannot.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wal= es.

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