=A0 Chapter 16.14 states "Theoretically, a bare = ``.i'' terminates the scope of the prenex. Informally, however, var= iables may persist for a while even after an ``.i'', as if it were = an ``.ije''."=A0 I was being informal, but yes, I could have f= ormally bounded the scope with a connective, or a tu'e/tu'u etc.=A0= I apologize.=A0 Especially since I don't want to confuse beginners.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Alex Rozenshte= yn <rpglover64= @gmail.com> wrote:

I was under the strong impressio= n that {da} had bridi scope (although that this may be a bone of contention= among jbopre) and thus that {mi viska re da poi danlu .i ro da gerku} are = stil two unrelated sentences.=20

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 7:54 AM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm with Lindar here.=A0 If you want to say &qu= ot;I see two animals (not mammals, Lindar, that would be mabru).=A0 All are= dogs", that would be "mi viska re danlu .i ro ri gerku" OR = "...ro dy gerku"=A0 OR "...ro lo se go'i cu gerku".= =A0 But to introduce "da", which was not contextualized before, y= ou are only saying that everything is a dog.=A0 We have lots of ways to say= "all of {something}"=A0 we don't need another, and certainly= not co-opting one that already HAS a meaning.=A0 Now, if you WANTED to use= da, you could do it like this: mi viska re da poi danlu .i ro da gerku&quo= t;.=A0 that DOES work, because now we are binding "da" to the uni= verse of the two things that I see.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = --gejyspa

=A0

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 2:46 AM, <rdentato@gma= il.com> wrote:

On Feb 25, 2011 8:01am, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Th= ey seem like nearly unrelated comments, and it doesn't really make sens= e. I mean, you could say, "I see two mammals. Everything is a dog.&quo= t; but it doesn't make any more sense it English. That's not how it= would be used. I actually find it useful in conversation to have {ro da po= i prenu} mean literally absolutely all people. {ro lo ro prenu} seems to be= nearly identical in meaning.

Well, you are the native English speaker, not me, but translating= literally from Lojban to English to make your point seems unfair to me. Tr= anslating {roda} with "everything" is extremely unfair, you shoul= d have said at least "all X". "I see two animals. All are do= gs" is just as valid literal translations as yours and, please, tell m= e that in English you see them as two unrelated sentences. In Italian, &quo= t;Vedo due animali. Tutti cani." is a literal translation that is also= absolutely comprehensible. I think those who know other Latin based langua= ges have similar examples.

I made this point already. Our projection of Lojban speakers seems to b= e of a bunch of dumb people that cannot relate semantic elements of sentenc= es. They are supposed to infer the right meaning of abstractions, of gismu = that have extremely broad meaning, of lujvo that can be created on the spot= and so on, but when they see {roda} they stop, look blindly and see two un= related sentences not being able to relate an unbound {da} to what has alre= ady been said.

I guess I had visited another region of Lojbanistan, where people can h= andle at least the same level of semantic ambiguity of other natural langua= ges and, in addition, are able to shape their thoughts in words much more p= recisely, as they see the need. It looked a much more interesting place to = visit but your mileage may vary.

remod=20

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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