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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:01:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal?
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That seems like a moot point.  "We shouldn't use lojban as the canonical
word definition language because we won't be able to define every word
without coming to a point of circularity".  We would have the same problem
defining anything in terms of anything else.  You're just crossing language
borders to include english in the circularity (i.e. what is "lo", it's an
article like "the", what is "the"?  Well now you're in a loop of english
definitions.  It's not avoiding the problem, it's just expanding it to make
it multi-lingual.

> Many (all?) languages lack vocabulary for concepts in other cultures.
Lacking words doesn't mean that a
> language (Klingon, in particular) can't be used to talk about those
concepts.

Exactly, that's why the lojbanic culture would probably be best served by
lojbanic definitions for it's words.

When the official dictionary does come out, I'll probably be buying the
english <-> lojban verison of it.  But I don't think that the official
definitions should be derived from how *english* describes a lojbanic word.
 That seems malgli to the extreme.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Thursday 21 April 2011 01:14:38 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > Ideally, /every/ Lojban word should be defined in Lojban. And whenever =
a
> > word /is/, that most certainly /is/ the canonical definition.
>
> It's impossible to define every word in a language in the same language
> without circularity. There must be some definitions which refer to things
> outside the language. All words for species of organisms: "cinfo", for
> instance, is defined as any organism of breed x2 which belongs to the
> species
> Panthera leo, which is in turn defined by a type specimen.
>
> Pierre
> --
> La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre.
> Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>

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That seems like a moot point. =A0&quot;We shouldn&#39;t use lojban as the c=
anonical word definition language because we won&#39;t be able to define ev=
ery word without coming to a point of circularity&quot;. =A0We would have t=
he same problem defining anything in terms of anything else. =A0You&#39;re =
just crossing language borders to include english in the circularity (i.e. =
what is &quot;lo&quot;, it&#39;s an article like &quot;the&quot;, what is &=
quot;the&quot;? =A0Well now you&#39;re in a loop of english definitions. =
=A0It&#39;s not avoiding the problem, it&#39;s just expanding it to make it=
 multi-lingual.<div>

<br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: c=
ollapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">&gt; Many (all?=
) languages lack vocabulary for concepts in other cultures. Lacking words d=
oesn&#39;t mean that a=A0</span></div>

<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: collapse; f=
ont-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">&gt; language (Klingon, i=
n particular) can&#39;t be used to talk about those concepts.</span></div>
<div>
<font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"=
Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></=
div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: collapse;">Exactly, th=
at&#39;s why the lojbanic culture would probably be best served by lojbanic=
 definitions for it&#39;s words.</span></font></div>

<div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span clas=
s=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></fo=
nt></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><=
span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: collapse;">When t=
he official dictionary does come out, I&#39;ll probably be buying the engli=
sh &lt;-&gt; lojban verison of it. =A0But I don&#39;t think that the offici=
al definitions should be derived from how <i>english</i>=A0describes a lojb=
anic word. =A0That seems malgli to the extreme.<br>

</span></font><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:21 A=
M, Pierre Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@phma.optus.nu"=
>phma@phma.optus.nu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;=
">

<div class=3D"im">On Thursday 21 April 2011 01:14:38 Jonathan Jones wrote:<=
br>
&gt; Ideally, /every/ Lojban word should be defined in Lojban. And whenever=
 a<br>
&gt; word /is/, that most certainly /is/ the canonical definition.<br>
<br>
</div>It&#39;s impossible to define every word in a language in the same la=
nguage<br>
without circularity. There must be some definitions which refer to things<b=
r>
outside the language. All words for species of organisms: &quot;cinfo&quot;=
, for<br>
instance, is defined as any organism of breed x2 which belongs to the speci=
es<br>
Panthera leo, which is in turn defined by a type specimen.<br>
<br>
Pierre<br>
--<br>
La sal en el mar es m=E1s que en la sangre.<br>
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">You received this message because =
you are subscribed to the Google Groups &quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.=
<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-begi=
nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>
For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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