Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCJbznvHdFRCPyNDtBBoEUGUHNQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QDzGk-0003S2-G1; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:38 -0700
Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf2579588fxm.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version
         :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=WXeWALj2OC2tpa+VjBP/rS7vHWoyWfwWwpgm4mbr/8U=;
        b=QbSw5NweuekLxO1VUuXYq2dsr7VY7Y2nYxUUC3ROLyctky40+ABFqb442jMPTNRk2U
         UlVVRuAR9D7pggLlUOhV+EEnUkPN5BbuGiMO4yaobWFnZkz2ag6DAnj/QveZy0nnEvnt
         vedaSDi7Xh2KwqTihS6Y+5jBsLd0Y7Hf+LJhU=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        b=OOInxMFkYnTg3yu4z4l7NkiUuDCGP3w3DL0Dplhmu/v1RdlHYC5TQSlkkRkQcqeued
         hrrvfPILtMJFHCtk5/tCmi/GYI09THqe8vNTf/sutDTZR6aw0Cv5SBPF/PvNANbCi0LM
         DkUFnh+xI7HQDGyUAG0BJfp9Jiuoi9Dz6bxoM=
Received: by 10.223.127.194 with SMTP id h2mr762124fas.9.1303651343970;
        Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.223.51.195 with SMTP id e3ls220072fag.1.gmail; Sun, 24 Apr
 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.223.113.20 with SMTP id y20mr226449fap.23.1303651342220;
        Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.223.113.20 with SMTP id y20mr226448fap.23.1303651342190;
        Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-fx0-f48.google.com (mail-fx0-f48.google.com [209.85.161.48])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c13si523651fak.8.2011.04.24.06.22.22
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.48;
Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so1566129fxm.21
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.223.3.132 with SMTP id 4mr3291858fan.132.1303651342056; Sun,
 24 Apr 2011 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.223.93.201 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:22:02 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTin3FC9kWqCwxXeZ7DzTyyyOnq76cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e5bdd6d-4bb8-415e-b50f-6a0d3e5454b4@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>
 <BANLkTini_bFv6vgUN4UmnkDgj+8huZ-SNg@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTim0vQPPAQKNuLe8V2acoJ9PybeJcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTimrzOrDKjqtCONawZcnSHQ_3mOovw@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTi=39pvwy213auV130_EE3p8fpLbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTi=P1sMWNqTWxcwLtY3dhLUhuNWFxg@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTimOE7j96acXCG0+R_RWstFyQbfMWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTimKGz9eVP5nRHs3HvnFrX9imBXPnQ@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTikWHv1VvbVMa11rGLDY81QFOCowNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTimGcfhFDZ=VXFJ8Z-KZ6A8c6vbOoQ@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTimp7QGzXABtFn2J0+23VYdFswQXaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTinRYF7TgicT+d8Vcx7_a2KoFsWa9w@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTik3zms_pdVxqoGjNXiOLDCR-uJBYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTimGizJu6J_EYo3AdsAgdDvwJAmJ4g@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTik=jswAXDP1+Z+ejFLHMDeGie9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTimYM9sEv1U1wZFBFkikQMtdq8a+Lw@mail.gmail.com> <BANLkTin3FC9kWqCwxXeZ7DzTyyyOnq76cg@mail.gmail.com>
From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:22:02 -0400
Message-ID: <BANLkTin1Ts4k_FSdyb6x5Y1CEFB-1wrTYA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal?
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3054a80b277d1104a1a9fbe5
Content-Length: 6175

--20cf3054a80b277d1104a1a9fbe5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, here's hers:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage
>
> I don't know if these are the same for every language- I assume so, since
> that's the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban.
>
> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy to
> define without circularity.
>
> Really? Which ones? How would you define them?



>
> 2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>
>> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka's
>> > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of
>> 'words'
>> > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words.
>> >>
>> > Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity.
>>
>> It's easy to fix this "problem" for any dictionary as follows:
>>
>> (1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as an entry and
>> classify it as "primitive".
>> (2) Take any word that appears in its own definition and classify it
>> as "primitive".
>> (3) Pick any remaining entry, classify it as "well-defined" and
>> classify all still unclassified words in its definition as
>> "primitive".
>> (4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries.
>>
>> You end up with a pile of words classified as "primitive" and another
>> pile classified as "well-defined". You can try all possible picking
>> orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for
>> the dictionary, since different picking orders will result in
>> different sets of primitives.
>>
>> It would be interesting to see how many primitives result from this
>> process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of
>> "primitives" compares with Wierzbicka's.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>
This would indeed be an interesting experiment.

stevo

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.


--20cf3054a80b277d1104a1a9fbe5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Well, here&#39;s hers: <a href=
=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage" target=3D"_=
blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage</a><br>

<br>I don&#39;t know if these are the same for every language- I assume so,=
 since that&#39;s the point, yes?- but most of them are cmavo in Lojban.<br=
><br>I also don&#39;t think they&#39;re very well chosen, as a lot of them =
are easy to define without circularity.=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br></div></div></blockquote>
<div>Really? Which ones? How would you define them? </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/4/23 Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 10:16 AM, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt; Circularity is avoidable. That&#39;s the whole point of Anna Wi=
erzbicka&#39;s<br>

&gt; Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of &=
#39;words&#39;<br>&gt; that can&#39;t be defined in terms of simpler words.=
<br>&gt;&gt;<br></div>
<div>&gt; Almost all dictionaries are unapologetic about circularity.<br><b=
r></div>It&#39;s easy to fix this &quot;problem&quot; for any dictionary as=
 follows:<br><br>(1) Take any word that appears in a definition but not as =
an entry and<br>

classify it as &quot;primitive&quot;.<br>(2) Take any word that appears in =
its own definition and classify it<br>as &quot;primitive&quot;.<br>(3) Pick=
 any remaining entry, classify it as &quot;well-defined&quot; and<br>classi=
fy all still unclassified words in its definition as<br>

&quot;primitive&quot;.<br>(4) Repeat step (3) until you run out of entries.=
<br><br>You end up with a pile of words classified as &quot;primitive&quot;=
 and another<br>pile classified as &quot;well-defined&quot;. You can try al=
l possible picking<br>

orders for step (3) if you wish to minimize the set of primitives for<br>th=
e dictionary, since different picking orders will result in<br>different se=
ts of primitives.<br><br>It would be interesting to see how many primitives=
 result from this<br>

process for a typical dictionary, and how the resulting list of<br>&quot;pr=
imitives&quot; compares with Wierzbicka&#39;s.<br><br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xor=
xes<br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>This would indeed be an interesting experiment. </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>stevo</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--20cf3054a80b277d1104a1a9fbe5--