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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:13:24 -0600
From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Possession with "le le ..."
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Excellent point.

My understanding of NU is that it is specifically designed to wrap
up a bridi into a sumti, which as you outline below conflicts with
my understanding of the design for CU.

Is this the only case where you can do this?  Are we looking at a
design decision specifically for NU that "takes precedence" (as it
were) over CU, or can this occur elsewhere too?

-Alan

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:59:55AM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>    Hmm, I guess it seems kind of like we do things differently in differe=
nt
>    situations.
>    {lo} converts a selbri to a sumti
>    {cu} says "here comes the next possible selbri" (basically it's a shor=
tcut
>    for "add all terminators until we get to a place where the next thing =
to
>    come is a selbri)
>    Thus, things like {lo nu lo gerku cu citka cu cinri} are valid. =EF=BF=
=BD The
>    first {cu} says "ok, here comes a selbri". =EF=BF=BD Then the second {=
cu} says
>    "ok, here comes the next valid one". =EF=BF=BD Each time, it says "the=
 next valid
>    place where a selbri makes sense, that's coming next".
>    Another example: lu lo gerku cu citka cu se cusku mi. =EF=BF=BD This i=
s valid, the
>    second {cu} says "ok, the next selbri is expected after we have hit a
>    {li'u} so stick the {li'u} in and take the next selbri
>    But in {lo lo blabi cu gerku} it seems like it's not behaving the same
>    way. =EF=BF=BD It seems like it's not valid to read this as "take the =
next selbri
>    and make it a sumti: (take the next selbri and make it a sumti: (blabi=
)
>    <here comes a selbri> (gerku) )
>    It seems like the "selbri" that {lo} is converting is not really a "tr=
ue"
>    selbri but something else.
>=20
>    On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:35 AM, .alyn.post.
>    <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>=20
>      Ah! ok. =EF=BF=BD Thank you Luke, let me try again:
>=20
>      The technical reason is that CU separates the preceding sumti from
>      the selbri that follows, and a nested LE is part of the sumti.
>=20
>      If a cu were permitted in the case described, I believe this would
>      be valid:
>=20
>      =EF=BF=BD le le broda cu brode cu brodi
>=20
>      And would be identical to:
>=20
>      =EF=BF=BD le le broda ku brode cu brodi
>=20
>      I suspect this is not permitted for the following reasons, though
>      I'm speculating:
>=20
>      =EF=BF=BD * CU is designed as an aide to the listener in finding the=
 selbri,
>      =EF=BF=BD so permitting it in a nested LE opens the possibility of h=
aving
>      =EF=BF=BD multipe CU in a bridi, weakening the ability to find the s=
elbri.
>      =EF=BF=BD * KU is the terminator to use when terminating a nested LE=
. =EF=BF=BD While
>      =EF=BF=BD you could *also* unambigiously permit other terminators, t=
his
>      =EF=BF=BD isn't the only scenario where this is true. =EF=BF=BD If y=
ou permitted
>      =EF=BF=BD every terminator that wasn't unambiguous you'd still have =
a
>      =EF=BF=BD parseable grammar, but one which would be more difficult t=
o
>      =EF=BF=BD understand: there would be increased cognitive load in det=
ermining
>      =EF=BF=BD what is being terminated, as you no longer have a direct
>      =EF=BF=BD correspondence between the opening and closing selma'o.
>=20
>      -Alan
>      On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15:34AM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD I think the question though is, if {cu} means =
"separate selbri
>      from
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD preceding sumti" then, why can't you do {le le=
 ninmu cu klama}
>      where this
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD is interpreted as: (something that goes in x1 =
of: ( something that
>      goes in
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD x1 of: (ninmu <cu so break out of this sumti a=
nd start talking
>      about a
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD selbri>) comes).
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. =
Basically, if {cu}
>      says "ok,
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri" b=
ut that itself is
>      happening
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD inside a LE, then why can't the following selb=
ri be converted by
>      the outer
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD LE?
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post.
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -=
0700, Ben Foppa wrote:
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Lojban for Beginners says "...cons=
ider how you would say le
>      tamne pe
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > le ninmu klama 'the woman travelle=
r's cousin' with this kind
>      of
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > nesting. You could flip it around =
as le le ninmu klama tamne
>      =EF=BF=BD but
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > then, how can you tell where the '=
possessor' ends and where
>      the
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 'possessee' begins?"
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > I wonder why a construct like "le =
le ninmu klama cu tamne"
>      wouldn't
>      > =EF=BF=BD ? =EF=BF=BD > work, to separate the argument to the firs=
t "le" (which is
>      "ninmu
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > klama"), from the argument to the =
second "le" (which is
>      "tamne"). Is
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > the purpose of "cu" not simply to =
separate two selbri when
>      they are
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > consecutive arguments, or when one=
 is the argument to another?
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD >
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You can use {ku} to terminate the in=
ner {le}:
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD le le ninmu klama ku tamne
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -alyn
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD --
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD --
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You received this message because yo=
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>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
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>      >
>      > References
>      >
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Visible links
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 1. mailto:[9]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2. mailto:[10]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co=
m
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 3. mailto:[11]lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@g=
ooglegroups.com
>      > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 4. [12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-b=
eginners?hl=3Den
>      --
>      .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>=20
>      --
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>      To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>=20
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>=20
> References
>=20
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>    2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>    3. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>    4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>    5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den
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>    8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den
>    9. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>   10. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>   11. mailto:lojban-beginners%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den
>   13. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>   14. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den

--=20
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