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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:37:17 -0600
From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Possession with "le le ..."
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While this is valid:

  lu lu broda cu brode

with terminators it is:

  lu lu broda li'u li'u cu brode

And it is still valid to say:

  lu lu broda

Without the selbri.

You can't, of course, change the order of terminators.  This is not
valid:

  lu lu broda li'u cu li'u brode

You can have an empty quote, but you can't have an empty LE, so this
is not valid:

  lo lo broda

It still isn't valid if you add CU:

  lo lo broda cu brode

You always have to terminate the inner LE.  This isn't valid either:

  lo lo broda brode

I wonder if the explanation is that nested LE has to be terminated,
CU can only be appended to already valid sumti.  Did I articulate
that difference sufficiently?  In this case, CU will add a bunch
of terminators, but can't actually literally replace them.

-Alan

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 02:59:43PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>    Oh wait a minute. Now that I think of it. If you read {cu} as "start
>    terminating things until you get to a place where a selbri is acceptab=
le
>    then stop" then the following is acceptable: lo lo gerku cu denci. We
>    reach the {cu} and say "ok, start terminating things until we get to a
>    place where a selbri makes sense" -> lo lo gerku ku denci.
>    This operation makes sense in every other place where {cu} is known an=
d
>    loved.
>    {lo nu lo gerku cu batci cu cinri}, the second {cu} stands in for {kei=
ku}
>    {lu lo plise cu xamgu cu se cusku}, the second {cu} stands in for {li'=
u}
>    {lo gerku poi lo mripre cu se batci cu blabi}, the second {cu} stands =
in
>    for {ku'o}
>    {lo lo gerku cu denci}, why can't the {cu} here stand in place of {ku}
>    yielding {lo lo gerku ku denci}
>    On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Ben Foppa <[1]eatingstaples@gmail.co=
m>
>    wrote:
>=20
>      Excellent, I understand now - thank you!
>      On Apr 28, 11:25 am, Jameson Orndorff <[2]jtorndo...@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>      > The purpose of {cu} is to mark the next construct as the selbri of=
 a
>      > main-level bridi. This word will terminate everything it needs to =
to
>      get you
>      > to a main-level selbri.
>      >
>      > The 'construct' you are working for is a terminator - {ku}. {ku}
>      terminates
>      > LE, LA, and a few other things, and will let you terminate the 'in=
ner'
>      > sumti.
>      >
>      > lo lo ninmu klama ku tamne
>      >
>      > mi'e .kribacr. mu'o
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Luke Bergen
>      <[3]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>      > > I think the question though is, if {cu} means "separate selbri f=
rom
>      > > preceding sumti" then, why can't you do {le le ninmu cu klama} w=
here
>      this is
>      > > interpreted as: (something that goes in x1 of: ( something that =
goes
>      in x1
>      > > of: (ninmu <cu so break out of this sumti and start talking abou=
t a
>      selbri>)
>      > > comes).
>      >
>      > > Ok, I don't know how to describe that better. Basically, if {cu}
>      says "ok,
>      > > we're done with this sumti, now do a selbri" but that itself is
>      happening
>      > > inside a LE, then why can't the following selbri be converted by=
 the
>      outer
>      > > LE?
>      >
>      > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:06 AM, .alyn.post. <
>      > > [4]alyn.p...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>      >
>      > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:49:21AM -0700, Ben Foppa wrote:
>      > >> > Lojban for Beginners says "...consider how you would say le t=
amne
>      pe
>      > >> > le ninmu klama 'the woman traveller's cousin' with this kind =
of
>      > >> > nesting. You could flip it around as le le ninmu klama tamne =
=EF=BF=BD
>      but
>      > >> > then, how can you tell where the 'possessor' ends and where t=
he
>      > >> > 'possessee' begins?"
>      >
>      > >> > I wonder why a construct like "le le ninmu klama cu tamne"
>      wouldn't
>      > >> > work, to separate the argument to the first "le" (which is "n=
inmu
>      > >> > klama"), from the argument to the second "le" (which is "tamn=
e").
>      Is
>      > >> > the purpose of "cu" not simply to separate two selbri when th=
ey
>      are
>      > >> > consecutive arguments, or when one is the argument to another=
?
>      >
>      > >> You can use {ku} to terminate the inner {le}:
>      >
>      > >> le le ninmu klama ku tamne
>      >
>      > >> -alyn
>      > >> --
>      > >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>      >
>      > >> --
>      > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo=
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>      >
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>=20
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.i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du

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