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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:36:46 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why is CAhA a tense/modal?
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:28 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It's easier to keep I and YOU than forever distinguish between I as
>> >> speaker and YOU as listener.
>> >
>> >
>> > Except that I /is/ /always/ the person speaking, and you /is/ /always/
>> the
>> > person listening.
>> >
>>
>>  Well, no.  I refer you to CLL 17.14:
>>
>> > Using any vocative except ``mi'e'' (explained below) implicitly defines
>> the meaning of the
>> > pro-sumti ``do'', as the whole point of vocatives is to specify the
>> listener, or at any rate
>> > the desired listener --- even if the desired listener isn't listening!
>> We will use the terms
>> > ``speaker'' and ``listener'' for clarity, although in written Lojban the
>> appropriate terms
>> > would be ``writer'' and ``reader''.
>>
>>
>>    So do doesn't have to be even listening.  And we also know that
>> mi'e can assign a plural to "mi". (CLL 7.2)  Questions like what does
>> "mi'e le gerku" mean (presumably "okay, I am speaking for the dog
>> now") are left open.
>>
>>               --gejyspa
>
>
> That reference agrees with me, gejyspa.


  You said do was _always_ the listener and mi was _always_ the speaker.
(emphasis yours).  I was simply pointing out do is only the
person being addressed, not necessarily a person who was actually
listening.  And that "I" can refer to someone other than the person who was
actually speaking, since you can be speaking for someone other than
yourself.
                  --gejyspa

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Jones=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Michael Turnian=
sky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&g=
t; On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:28 PM, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ly=
tlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; It&#39;s easier to keep I and YOU than forever disting=
uish between I as<br>&gt;&gt; speaker and YOU as listener.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; Except that I /is/ /always/ the person speaking, and you /is/ /alwa=
ys/ the<br>
&gt; person listening.<br>&gt;<br><br></div>=A0Well, no. =A0I refer you to =
CLL 17.14:<br><br>&gt; Using any vocative except ``mi&#39;e&#39;&#39; (expl=
ained below) implicitly defines the meaning of the<br>&gt; pro-sumti ``do&#=
39;&#39;, as the whole point of vocatives is to specify the listener, or at=
 any rate<br>
&gt; the desired listener --- even if the desired listener isn&#39;t listen=
ing! We will use the terms<br>&gt; ``speaker&#39;&#39; and ``listener&#39;&=
#39; for clarity, although in written Lojban the appropriate terms<br>&gt; =
would be ``writer&#39;&#39; and ``reader&#39;&#39;.<br>
<br><br>=A0 =A0So do doesn&#39;t have to be even listening. =A0And we also =
know that<br>mi&#39;e can assign a plural to &quot;mi&quot;. (CLL 7.2) =A0Q=
uestions like what does<br>&quot;mi&#39;e le gerku&quot; mean (presumably &=
quot;okay, I am speaking for the dog<br>
now&quot;) are left open.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa</blo=
ckquote></div><br></div></div>That reference agrees with me, gejyspa. </blo=
ckquote>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0 You said=A0do was _always_ the listener and mi was _always_ the sp=
eaker.=A0 (emphasis yours).=A0 I was simply pointing out=A0do is only the p=
erson=A0being=A0addressed, not necessarily=A0a person who was actually list=
ening.=A0 And that &quot;I&quot; can refer to someone other than the person=
 who was actually speaking, since you can be speaking for someone other tha=
n yourself.</div>

<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </div></div></div>

<p></p>

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/>
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