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Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:48:19 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 6:40 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 May 2011 20:44, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   I don't believe "lo no gerku cu blabi" to be self
> contradictory/nonsense.
> >   Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blabi
> >   I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi
> >   I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi
> >   I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi
> >   Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthfully say
> "lo
> > no gerku cu xekri".
>
> In your example, "na xekri" may be true for "lo ci gerku poi blabi";
> otherwise, we can't determine whether or not "na xekri" holds at all
> in the given context. You can truthfully say
> a) some particular things are not xekri, or
> b) nothing of some particular things are xekri.
> That is, if any statement with "xekri" is to have any discernible
> truth value in the particular domain of discourse of your example, it
> must make reference to "lo ci gerku poi blabi" (or alternatively "lo
> gerku poi blabi gi'e ci mei"); "... cu (ja'a) xekri" can be said to be
> true only if the x1 refers to that particular given entity AND is
> quantified with "no":
>
> no lo gerku cu xekri
>
> Not:
>
> lo no gerku cu xekri
>
>
> mu'o
>
>
  But those are two different assertions.  In the first, we don't know how
many dogs are in the universe of discourse, but we know no matter how many
there are, none of them are black.  The second says there are in fact zero
dogs (lo gerku cu nomei),  and it's the second part that really doesn't add
any information, since any assertion about a nomei (other than an assertion
about its cardinality, I guess) is per force true, and therefore adds no
further information.  That's right, I am saying that "lo no gerku cu broda",
for any value of broda, asserts one thing, and one thing only, that "lo
gerku cu nomei".  Therefore it's neither contradictory, nor meaningless, nor
nonsense.  It does make an assertion, it does impart information (that we
have no dogs), it just imparts it in an efficient way, and does not impart
any other information that it might on the surface appear to.
                --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 10, 2011 at=
 6:40 AM, tijlan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jbotijlan@gmail.co=
m">jbotijlan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On 9 May 2011 20:44, Michael Turniansky &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; =A0 I don&#39;t believe &quot;lo no gerku cu blabi&quot; to be self co=
ntradictory/nonsense.<br>
&gt; =A0 Consider a room containing three white dogs -- lo ci gerku cu blab=
i<br>
&gt; =A0 I take one away -- lo re gerku cu blabi<br>
&gt; =A0=A0I take another away -- lo pa gerku cu blabi<br>
&gt; =A0 I take the last one away -- lo no gerku cu blabi<br>
&gt; =A0=A0Of course, when I take the last one away, I can equally truthful=
ly say &quot;lo<br>
&gt; no gerku cu xekri&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>In your example, &quot;na xekri&quot; may be true for &quot;lo ci ger=
ku poi blabi&quot;;<br>
otherwise, we can&#39;t determine whether or not &quot;na xekri&quot; holds=
 at all<br>
in the given context. You can truthfully say<br>
a) some particular things are not xekri, or<br>
b) nothing of some particular things are xekri.<br>
That is, if any statement with &quot;xekri&quot; is to have any discernible=
<br>
truth value in the particular domain of discourse of your example, it<br>
must make reference to &quot;lo ci gerku poi blabi&quot; (or alternatively =
&quot;lo<br>
gerku poi blabi gi&#39;e ci mei&quot;); &quot;... cu (ja&#39;a) xekri&quot;=
 can be said to be<br>
true only if the x1 refers to that particular given entity AND is<br>
quantified with &quot;no&quot;:<br>
<br>
no lo gerku cu xekri<br>
<br>
Not:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
lo no gerku cu xekri<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>mu&#39;o<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>=A0 But those are two different assertions.=A0 In=
 the first, we don&#39;t know how many dogs are in the universe of discours=
e, but we know no matter how many there are, none of them are black.=A0 The=
 second says there are in fact zero dogs (lo gerku cu nomei),=A0 and it&#39=
;s the second part that really doesn&#39;t add any information, since any a=
ssertion about a nomei (other than an assertion about its cardinality, I gu=
ess) is per force true, and therefore adds no further information.=A0 That&=
#39;s right, I am saying that &quot;lo no gerku cu broda&quot;, for any val=
ue of broda, asserts one thing, and one thing only, that &quot;lo gerku cu =
nomei&quot;.=A0 Therefore it&#39;s neither contradictory, nor meaningless, =
nor nonsense.=A0 It does make an assertion, it does impart information (tha=
t we have no dogs), it just imparts it in an efficient way, and does not im=
part any other information that it might on the surface appear to.<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa<br><br></div></div>=
</div>

<p></p>

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