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Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:25:49 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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It's the elements that don't exist; the {se nomei} and consequently the
{nomei} do exist, they just don't have anything in them.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

2011/5/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > You can't have a se broda without a broda, in some sense.
>
> I agree. That's why you can't really say that the empty set is a se
> cmima, and why "se cmima" is not a very good word for "set" (and
> "botpi" is not a very good word for bottles without lids).
>
> > The broda might
> > not be a "thing" (in a slightly looser sense than {dacti}), but it must
> > "exist".
>
> What exactly is the argument, then? That "nomei" must make logical
> sense only because it is grammatical? "nomei" only makes sense when
> you allow yourself to talk about nothing as a thing. It can make for
> some interesting philosophical ponderings, but it's not part of
> ordinary predicate logic. In predicate logic you only deal with
> things, not with things that count and quasi-things that don't count.
> If it exists in a logical sense, then it immediately counts as one,
> not zero.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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>
>

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It&#39;s the elements that don&#39;t exist; the {se nomei} and consequently=
 the {nomei} do exist, they just don&#39;t have anything in them.<br><br>mu=
&#39;o mi&#39;e .latros.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/5/10 Jorge =
Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jj=
llambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im">On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 7=
:35 PM, Ian Johnson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com">blindbrav=
ado@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt; You can&#39;t have a se broda without a broda, in some sense.<br>
<br>
</div>I agree. That&#39;s why you can&#39;t really say that the empty set i=
s a se<br>
cmima, and why &quot;se cmima&quot; is not a very good word for &quot;set&q=
uot; (and<br>
&quot;botpi&quot; is not a very good word for bottles without lids).<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; The broda might<br>
&gt; not be a &quot;thing&quot; (in a slightly looser sense than {dacti}), =
but it must<br>
&gt; &quot;exist&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>What exactly is the argument, then? That &quot;nomei&quot; must make =
logical<br>
sense only because it is grammatical? &quot;nomei&quot; only makes sense wh=
en<br>
you allow yourself to talk about nothing as a thing. It can make for<br>
some interesting philosophical ponderings, but it&#39;s not part of<br>
ordinary predicate logic. In predicate logic you only deal with<br>
things, not with things that count and quasi-things that don&#39;t count.<b=
r>
If it exists in a logical sense, then it immediately counts as one,<br>
not zero.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<br>
--<br>
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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