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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:33:19 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {le} and {lo}
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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Previous reference is not relevant to {lo} or to {le}. {lo] is generic; it
is simply one or more x1s of the selbri provided. In this sense it is
somewhat like a/an. However, {le} is for one or more specific things that
*the speaker* has in mind, that they are describing as being an x1 of the
selbri (but needn't be x1s of the selbri). "The" is quite different from
{le}; "the" is relative to *the listener*, and so we would typically say
things like "A dog went across the street. The dog dug up a bone." These
sentences would not probably be translated with {lo} followed by {le}; in
the first sentence, you don't have a specific dog in mind, and then in the
second sentence you are talking about the same dog, but it still isn't a
specific one, and so you would use {lo} in both cases. On the other hand,
since {le}'s "having in mind" is relative to *the speaker*, you could easily
introduce a sumti with {le} if you had it in mind at the start of the
conversation, even if the listener doesn't know the exact referent.

a'o sidju .i mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Ben Foppa <eatingstaples@gmail.com> wrote:

> This has been my understand of {lo} and {le}, please anybody correct
> me if I'm wrong:
> {lo} indicates something-which-really-is (or plurality thereof),
> something which may-or-may-not have been referenced previously - this
> is analogous to English "a/an" or "some", where things must - when
> they're first introduced - be described as they are (for instance, "a
> shadow that looked like a cat").
>
> {le} indicates something-which-is-described-as (or plurality thereof),
> and is used for specific things the speaker/writer has in mind, making
> it analogous to "the" in English, where things may be described
> somewhat incorrectly for context's sake (for instance, describing the
> aforementioned shadow as "the cat").
>
> This is based on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo and L4B -
> are these correct interpretations? Obviously, not all the grammatical
> intricacies will match, but for day-to-day speaking use, would these
> be appropriate interpretations?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>

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Previous
 reference is not relevant to {lo} or to {le}. {lo] is generic; it is=20
simply one or more x1s of the selbri provided. In this sense it is=20
somewhat like a/an. However, {le} is for one or more specific things=20
that *the speaker* has in mind, that they are describing as being an x1=20
of the selbri (but needn&#39;t be x1s of the selbri). &quot;The&quot; is qu=
ite=20
different from {le}; &quot;the&quot; is relative to *the listener*, and so =
we would typically say things like &quot;A dog went across the street. The =
dog dug up a bone.&quot; These sentences would not probably be translated w=
ith {lo} followed by {le}; in the first sentence, you don&#39;t have a spec=
ific dog in mind, and then in the second sentence you are talking about the=
 same dog, but it still isn&#39;t a specific one, and so you would use {lo}=
 in both cases. On the other hand, since {le}&#39;s &quot;having in mind&qu=
ot; is relative to *the speaker*, you could easily introduce a sumti with {=
le} if you had it in mind at the start of the conversation, even if the lis=
tener doesn&#39;t know the exact referent.<br>
<br>a&#39;o sidju .i mu&#39;o mi&#39;e latros<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Ben Foppa <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:eatingstaples@gmail.com">eatingstaples@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">This has been my understand of {lo} and {le=
}, please anybody correct<br>
me if I&#39;m wrong:<br>
{lo} indicates something-which-really-is (or plurality thereof),<br>
something which may-or-may-not have been referenced previously - this<br>
is analogous to English &quot;a/an&quot; or &quot;some&quot;, where things =
must - when<br>
they&#39;re first introduced - be described as they are (for instance, &quo=
t;a<br>
shadow that looked like a cat&quot;).<br>
<br>
{le} indicates something-which-is-described-as (or plurality thereof),<br>
and is used for specific things the speaker/writer has in mind, making<br>
it analogous to &quot;the&quot; in English, where things may be described<b=
r>
somewhat incorrectly for context&#39;s sake (for instance, describing the<b=
r>
aforementioned shadow as &quot;the cat&quot;).<br>
<br>
This is based on <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo</a> and L4B -<b=
r>
are these correct interpretations? Obviously, not all the grammatical<br>
intricacies will match, but for day-to-day speaking use, would these<br>
be appropriate interpretations?<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
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<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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/>
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