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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:45:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Using "nu" From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4943 Senva is indeed the correct word here. In "I have a dream" that's really a [se] pacna. A se senva is something that is basically a story line in your head, whether true or false, typically not under your conscious control. A xanri is something that exists typically only in the mind of someone, (despite the way it's written in gi'uste which was done to avoid the le/lo problem pre-xorlo), although it may be an ideal conception of a real thing, and can very easily be under conscious control. --gejyspa On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 3:14 AM, ianek wrote: > Is {senva} the correct word here? To me, dream/reverie means something > one would like to happen and ponders it, as in "I have a dream". The > sleeping kind of dream I'd translate as {sipxanri}. > The main problem here is that the gismu definitions are written in an > ambiguous language, but synonyms in them are meant to disambiguate. > You wouldn't call an animal {lo stela} if it's {lo pinpedi}. In my > rarbau "sleeping dream" and "daydream/reverie" are completely > different words. > By the way, I've had a half-lucid dream this night. I started to fly > and I knew that it's possible only in a dream, but I didn't care much. > It was a good flight, even if I was mildly concious that somewhere > else I lay on a bed. > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > On Jun 27, 8:43=A0am, Remo Dentato wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Ben Foppa wr= ote: >> >> > melbi fa lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi >> >> > Aiming for "Self-aware dreams are beautiful", or, more precisely: >> > "beautiful are dreams which are aware of the self". >> >> It seem to me: "the event of the dreamer being conscious of himself is >> beautiful". In other words, you deem beautiful the fact that a dreamer >> is (or can be) conscious of himself. >> >> If you meant, instead, that "lucid dreaming" is beautiful in itself, I >> would go with: {lo nu sanji senva cu melbi}. >> >> If are the "dreams" that are beautiful, then you won't need {nu} at >> all: {lo sanji selsne cu melbi} >> >> I think the tanru {sanji senva} ("x1 makes a conscious type of dream >> about x2") renders "lucid dream" quite precisely as in lucid dreams >> one is aware of the the fact that he is dreaming, not necessarily he >> is aware of his ego. >> >> I still have a =A0problem with {melbi} since it is meant for aesthetic >> judgment, I suspect that you meant "beautiful" in some other sense >> (maybe {pluka}?) for which there's not a direct translation in Lojban. >> >> Note that dreams can't be aware of anything and they do not have a >> "self". Only dreamers do. >> >> > 1. Is this correct? I'm a little confused as to how to turn "lo senva >> > cu sanji le sevzi" into a sumti. >> >> It is grammatically correct but I don't think is what you meant. I'm >> not sure why you want to convert it into a sumti but the easiest way >> is probably to transform it in "the dreamer who is conscious of self" >> -> {lo senva poi sanji le sevzi} >> >> > 2. I'm thinking that not using "fa" (i.e. "lonu lo senva cu sanji le >> > sevzi cu melbi") wouldn't work, because it's sort of vague as to what >> > the "nu" encompasses. Is this correct? >> >> Lojban grammar is never ambiguous. in you case is: >> =A0{ << lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi >> cu melbi} >> >> {nu} (and all the other abstractions} take an entire bridi so you >> simply stop before the second {cu}. >> >> When you're in doubt, try to use jboski (or jbofihe) to check how the >> sentence parses. Use the terminator {kei} to define where the >> abstraction ends if the default rules give you something different >> from what you want. >> >> > 3. Is my use of "lo" twice correct? How would meanings change if I >> > used: >> >> {le} is specific in the sense that you're talking about a dream >> (and/or dreamer) you have in mind (and possibly identified by the >> context of what is being said). >> {lo} is more generic but almost always correct. Stay with {lo} as much >> as possible and you'll never be wrong :) (I still have problems >> following this rule myself). >> >> Enjoy your holiday trip to Lojbanistan :) >> >> mu'o mi'e remod. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.