Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARDJzLHwBBoEHFbFdA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QcFz1-0001yj-3T; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:47 -0700
Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf1496032pvc.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=cA3Q3ISIDHnjfq6F3766mxkaK3P6dmapbH8iG5c/8X8=;
        b=OCtkEmYdyFb0XBBqYZu+V85eo6XCGyJShLDdeQqn7Tbt+2jHpYqS6rtmwkqW7h5d+H
         +IVvxH3pNHIKU3+DvRSGg7PaKjEuMTnFCt6GULjqzBlCNLuYmlMZrA0CQj5D5oE7a6uD
         39yIV4M0x3mdOS/Mvu4jzlxemFSaGfPEGxoYU=
Received: by 10.68.33.226 with SMTP id u2mr378369pbi.29.1309435465494;
        Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.68.37.105 with SMTP id x9ls2405020pbj.2.gmail; Thu, 30 Jun
 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.39.201 with SMTP id r9mr28175pbk.31.1309435464515;
        Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.39.201 with SMTP id r9mr28174pbk.31.1309435464500;
        Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pz0-f52.google.com (mail-pz0-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f8si4499491pbc.0.2011.06.30.05.04.24
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.52;
Received: by pzd13 with SMTP id 13so2419575pzd.11
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.68.63.161 with SMTP id h1mr2221435pbs.141.1309435464366; Thu,
 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.68.40.9 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=i=Xc7TyH4UoSN4fhHgcAd=qhf8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1665dd93-53b2-4442-8b6d-ab80aabdcbda@b21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
	<BANLkTi=yXi6NNTKWbcP9jpKVerRz-SBFVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<9454fde3-7042-4c60-82d9-776f51b07b5c@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
	<BANLkTinfe9pKtsC7Q02xML=tpyvp+QpW2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<8ecaf8d7-810f-41e7-b4cc-9208b696f6ce@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
	<BANLkTi=QcqaJDZvi0MJSMrZcOfwqU-XY2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=i=Xc7TyH4UoSN4fhHgcAd=qhf8A@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 08:04:24 -0400
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=k0BHY_ZoFpAgSk2Gu_dSOGh+RyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {le} and {lo}
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.52 as permitted
 sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53aea58b5bafb04a6ecb383
Content-Length: 4962

--bcaec53aea58b5bafb04a6ecb383
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Erm...{le broda} is not {zo'e noi ke'a broda}. It's {zo'e noi mi skicu ke'a
do lo ka ce'u broda}. Technically the formal definition has nothing to do
with "having in mind", which sorta confuses me still. Is there some
historical undercurrent here that I don't know about?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:35 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> As Pierre and selckiku pointed out, {le} seems most meaningful when
> used to particularize a member of a category against other members of
> the same category. For this aspect, {le} may be expanded like so:
>
>  le gerku = zo'e su'anai noi gerku ( particular DOG )
>
> ({su'anai} is to modify {zo'e} rather than {noi} or {gerku}, because
> what's particular isn't the fact that the referent is a DOG but the
> existence of the referent itself out of other members of DOG.)
>
> As opposed to:
>
>  lo gerku = zo'e noi gerku ( general / particular / ... DOG )
>  lo'e gerku = zo'e su'a noi gerku ( general DOG )
>
> {le fraso} is a su'anai FRENCH-LANGUAGE (likely a dialect), which is
> still a FRENCH-LANGUAGE. If you ate {le badna}, you would have eaten
> {lo badna} of the same instance, because a particular BANANA is still
> a BANANA.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e tijlan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--bcaec53aea58b5bafb04a6ecb383
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Erm...{le broda} is not {zo&#39;e noi ke&#39;a broda}. It&#39;s {zo&#39;e n=
oi mi skicu ke&#39;a do lo ka ce&#39;u broda}. Technically the formal defin=
ition has nothing to do with &quot;having in mind&quot;, which sorta confus=
es me still. Is there some historical undercurrent here that I don&#39;t kn=
ow about?<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .latros.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Ju=
n 30, 2011 at 3:35 AM, tijlan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jboti=
jlan@gmail.com">jbotijlan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex;">
As Pierre and selckiku pointed out, {le} seems most meaningful when<br>
used to particularize a member of a category against other members of<br>
the same category. For this aspect, {le} may be expanded like so:<br>
<br>
 =A0le gerku =3D zo&#39;e su&#39;anai noi gerku ( particular DOG )<br>
<br>
({su&#39;anai} is to modify {zo&#39;e} rather than {noi} or {gerku}, becaus=
e<br>
what&#39;s particular isn&#39;t the fact that the referent is a DOG but the=
<br>
existence of the referent itself out of other members of DOG.)<br>
<br>
As opposed to:<br>
<br>
 =A0lo gerku =3D zo&#39;e noi gerku ( general / particular / ... DOG )<br>
 =A0lo&#39;e gerku =3D zo&#39;e su&#39;a noi gerku ( general DOG )<br>
<br>
{le fraso} is a su&#39;anai FRENCH-LANGUAGE (likely a dialect), which is<br=
>
still a FRENCH-LANGUAGE. If you ate {le badna}, you would have eaten<br>
{lo badna} of the same instance, because a particular BANANA is still<br>
a BANANA.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e tijlan<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-begi=
nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com</a>.<br>
For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--bcaec53aea58b5bafb04a6ecb383--