Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCOO27LuODBCQq5nvBBoE8gbSeQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QRn0j-0007Dy-CK; Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:07:10 -0700
Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf9336072qyk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to
         :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id
         :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=k/y+061bb1nfGuTM/M5pEpNXwNx8gisR9r93wjrlgGU=;
        b=sf9RC9Qr7dsSCDIH/bHH/GEVOU5O0fsLVjMdZ+W8+J5xR4/pFRnwwwidWciHiFLHxH
         5Ng/lFrRFc59Ru1Tzcf5KAXYnQQUKmuLzDla30ow1wrl9+RA9nBrJftXPZHMPlZAxIsE
         fyBpM5L3TkC6yUAUDQ/Wq5G1wJVwiZMOP8wQg=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent
         :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        b=CGvofUN/wjRXc9QjZWtw5RBV5DCOtVi2V907xTC0hkRWX2WH8ykKKZhkAGsYfvTeHk
         V1jOhP0b3wtFeQ0bwasbaUso6uoS/8oAY7AyWDybHfXj7wOLnvPRs7zvIwISX+v7v4Ds
         DZw46AjTSBM307Rx4O1ubo797gFdW6rt/p3cY=
Received: by 10.224.207.3 with SMTP id fw3mr1819796qab.55.1306940816498;
        Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.224.187.145 with SMTP id cw17ls118360qab.2.gmail; Wed, 01 Jun
 2011 08:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.197.194 with SMTP id el2mr1864334qab.14.1306940815976;
 Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by hv8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:06:55
 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:06:55 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTin66eDWKa9AEugtS0MHNSP+4uNrmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c5724647-fa6b-4f60-a927-f16c02e07d06@dr5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
 <BANLkTin66eDWKa9AEugtS0MHNSP+4uNrmA@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17)
 Gecko/20110422 Linux Mint/10 (Julia) Firefox/3.6.17,gzip(gfe)
Message-ID: <3c1eb5ce-6d28-4d42-b72f-e20b536f4598@hv8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Who created the universe? no da, zi'o, etc.
From: paul_faehrbrorn <pa.fae@gmx.de>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: pa.fae@gmx.de
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Length: 2213

Thank you (both) for your answers.

On May 30, 8:33 pm, Michael Turniansky <mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > b) looks like a normal "fill-in-the-sumti" answer to a "ma"-question,
> > but does in fact turn the bridi "se cupra" into the different bridi
> > "se cupra zi'o", doesn't it? Is that grammatically, pragmatically
> > possible? What does it mean?
>
>   It would mean a thing that is created but without a creating agent.
> It's hard to imagine, which is why zi'o isn't often used ;-)

So, "ti botpi fo ma" --- "i zi'o" is a correct, if unlikely, dialogue
involving a speaker who is inclined to mistake a lidless bottle for a
lo botpi?

>    No, although a) does imply c) (but not vice versa).  There is
> something wrong on a meta-level about you asking what created the
> world.

That something being my contrafactual presupposition of a world
creator/lo se cupra?


On May 30, 8:13 pm, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> b is a very non-informative answer, saying something like {lo te cupra be lo
> munje cu zasti .iju lo cupra be lo munje cu zasti} (there was a processes by
> which the world was created, but there may or may not have been a creator)

Because generally "zi'o broda" does not necessarily entail "na broda"?

> Also, I think for f, you mean {ri noi cevni}, unless you mean {ri poi cevni
> fi ke'a} rather than {ri poi ke'a cevni}, and even so, it's confusing. Using
> {poi}, you're restricting your claim to only worlds the fit in some place
> (probably the first) of {cevni}, while using {noi} you're providing
> additional information that the world is god (or, less likely, that the
> world is god's domain, since you didn't specify with {ke'a}).

Yes, I meant the additional information that everything which is world
is god (but not necessarily the other way round). So, I think "noi" is
what I want.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.