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Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 18:51:05 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Just to double check, about {da} and quantifiers
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On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/5/31 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Who said anything about making "ro da poi broda" =3D "no da poi broda"?
>
> =A0Let me rephrase. =A0When you said, " If there are no cat-dogs, it's [
> "ro da poi =A0ke'a gerku je mlatu cu broda"] true, since for every value
> of da it will be false that da gerku je mlatu.", that means that there
> are no cat-dogs.

Right.

>=A0 In a universe where "ro da poi gerku je mlatu" is a
> nomei,

There's no such universe. "ro da poi gerku je mlatu" is a quantifier,
so it cannot be a nomei, whatever a nomei is (I think nothing is in
fact a nomei, by definition, but a quantifier is certainly not a
nomei).

> "no da poi gerku je mlatu" refers to the same thing (an empty
> set).

No, quantifiers don't refer, they quantify,

In a universe where there are no cat-dogs, both "ro da poi gerku je
mlatu cu smacu" and "no da poi gerku je mlatu cu smacu" happen to be
true. Is that what you are saying? But neither of those expressions
includes a reference.

>=A0But my major point was simply =A0that =A0all things that are
> cat-dogs are in fact a nomei.

First you would have to explain how anything at all can be a nomei. My
understanding is that "ro da zo'u da su'o mei", "For every x, x is
something".  No thing is a nomei.

> So for any broda, " ro da poi ke'a
> gerku je mlatu ku'o va'o lo du'u da nomei cu broda" is true.

You are now leaving logical simplicity behind by introducing this
"va'o lo du'u da nomei" term. If we try to expand your sentence to
logical form, we get:

ro da zo'u ganai da gerku je mlatu gi da va'o lo nu da nomei cu broda

Now, for each value of "da", "da gerku je mlatu" is false, and "da
nomei" is also false.

So ganai ... gi ... is true because the first part is false. What did
the never satisfied "va'o lo du'u da nomei" term add?

> Which I
> contend is precisely what "[ro] lo no gerku je mlatu cu broda" means
> and is therefore always true. =A0I know, I know. You all disagree that
> it's meaningful. But then you come around and assert what I consider
> to be the very same thing, just phrased differently.

I don't think we are saying the same thing at all. I assume you are
not saying that "ro lo PA gerku je mlatu cu broda" expands to "ro da
poi ke'a gerku je mlatu ku'o va'o lo du'u da PAmei cu broda", but I
don't really know what it is you are saying it expands to.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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