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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Coining a lujvo: "evidence"
From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 7:37 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28 July 2011 03:18, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I, personally, am a fan {au sai} of {facydatci}
> >
> > Data that's false isn't data, per se.
>
> You can have false data as working data. That's how fraud, delusion,
> etc. are possible.
>

I'm tempted to continue differentiating "working data" (i.e. something that
someone thinks to be data and thus true) and "data" (which must be either
{lo jetnu} or {lo fatci}, I'm not sure which), but I am beginning to see how
this can become problematic.

>
> Consider also this case:
> A 'color-blind' person goi koha and a non-'color-blind' person goi
> kohe are looking at an apple and an orange. Kohe says the two fruits
> have different colors. Koha says they have the same color. Both koha
> and kohe are truthfully reporting the sense data they each perceive of
> the fruits. Koha's and kohe's datni represent relative facts. But
> fatci1 is defined to be 'in the absolute'. Whose sense data should be
> exclusively referred to as {facydatni}? In other words, whose datni
> would you consider as being *not* of reality?
>

If "color" is an abstract notion based on perception (your blue vs. my
blue), then {ge nai lo datni pe ko'a gi nai lo datni pe ko'e fatci} (could I
have said {lo datni pe ge nai ko'a gi nai ko'e fatci}?) since neither is
true in the absolute sense.

If "color" is defined in terms of the wavelengths/frequencies of the photons
bouncing off of the fruits, then kohe's statement is certainly not fatci and
koha's statment is probably fatci, but koha can't know that just based on
koha's observation.

>
> --
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> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 7:37 AM, tijlan <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jbotijlan@gmail.com">jbotijlan@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On 28 July 2011 03:18, .arpis. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpgl=
over64%2Bjbobau@gmail.com">rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; I, personally, am a fan {au sai} of {facydatci}<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Data that&#39;s false isn&#39;t data, per se.<br>
<br>
</div>You can have false data as working data. That&#39;s how fraud, delusi=
on,<br>
etc. are possible.<br></blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m tempted to continue dif=
ferentiating &quot;working data&quot; (i.e. something that someone thinks t=
o be data and thus true) and &quot;data&quot; (which must be either {lo jet=
nu} or {lo fatci}, I&#39;m not sure which), but I am beginning to see how t=
his can become problematic.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Consider also this case:<br>
A &#39;color-blind&#39; person goi koha and a non-&#39;color-blind&#39; per=
son goi<br>
kohe are looking at an apple and an orange. Kohe says the two fruits<br>
have different colors. Koha says they have the same color. Both koha<br>
and kohe are truthfully reporting the sense data they each perceive of<br>
the fruits. Koha&#39;s and kohe&#39;s datni represent relative facts. But<b=
r>
fatci1 is defined to be &#39;in the absolute&#39;. Whose sense data should =
be<br>
exclusively referred to as {facydatni}? In other words, whose datni<br>
would you consider as being *not* of reality?<br></blockquote><div><br>If &=
quot;color&quot; is an abstract notion based on perception (your blue vs. m=
y blue), then {ge nai lo datni pe ko&#39;a gi nai lo datni pe ko&#39;e fatc=
i} (could I have said {lo datni pe ge nai ko&#39;a gi nai ko&#39;e fatci}?)=
 since neither is true in the absolute sense.<br>
<br>If &quot;color&quot; is defined in terms of the wavelengths/frequencies=
 of the photons bouncing off of the fruits, then kohe&#39;s statement is ce=
rtainly not fatci and koha&#39;s statment is probably fatci, but koha can&#=
39;t know that just based on koha&#39;s observation.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr=
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For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .arpis.<br><br>

<p></p>

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/>
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-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



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