On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:49 PM, volcpitar <apeal@comcast.net><= /span> wrote:

ni'o coi rodo i mi cnino mrilu i ku'i mi cire'u ca troci co vli= cu'u fo

You're a new mailer? Interesting (not = incorrect, just surprising) choice of words.

{mi cire'u ca troci= co vlicu'u} probably doesn't mean what you think it means.

General lujvo convention is that a XXX YYY is a XXX-ish type of YYY -- = so generally, a vlicu'u 's x1 should -- not must, though, be a {lo = cuntu}. In short, you are saying that, for the third time, you are a attemp= t-ish powerful affair ;).
I can only interpret your x4 tag 'fo' as referring to the vlipa x3 = -- due to another convention, that most often, a XXX YYY lujvo has the x1 p= lace of YYY (=3D=3D cuntu) and some or all of the following places are from= XXX (beginning from either x1, or (more commonly) x2, according to what ma= kes sense in context)
So, 'for the third time, currently... I am an powerful-affair-ish attem= pt under conditions of (something Lojbanic)'

Also, if you are le= arning, I recommend sticking to the basics -- co can be useful, but for a s= tart it's better to use the conventional ordering.
You did use co correctly, though. I just question why you would use it.
=
Anyway. In this bridi, I wonder if you are really clear about what you = want to be the selbri -- what the most important relation is?
If I was t= ranslating your english sentence, I might write

{mi cire'u ca troci lo nu cilre fi lo jbobau}
"I, for the 3= rd time, presently attempt an event of learning about the Lojban language&q= uot;

That's because I regard 'attempt' as being the key = relationship in that sentence.
Other corrections:
"jbobau" -- referring to Lojbanic language = rather than just 'something Lojbanic' (for example, arguably you an= d I are {lo lojbo} -- something lojbanic, to some degree)
"cilre&qu= ot; -- well, I expect you would have used this rather than vlicu'u if y= ou had better grasp of gismu vocab. I suggest trying jbofacki (offline tool= ) or vlasisku (online tool) for looking up words. It takes a bit of thought= to work out the subtleties in the definition of each gismu. Maybe you didn= 't feel it was appropriate here?
Anyway:
"nu" -- If you are talking about being a {lo troci}, t= hen you are attempting an event, state or property. I suggest looking up se= lma'o NU or NU1, for such useful abstractions as {mu'e} (point-even= t/achievement) {za'i} (continuous state) and {zu'o} (activity)

Incidentally, if by vlicu'u you meant 'attain power in&= #39; -- I think {vlipa troci}/{vlitoi} is probably something worth looking = into. If you want to emphasize mastery (in the relative sense -- absolute m= astery is only a subset of vlipa AFAICS), then they may be more suitable th= an cilre. In this case I suppose the x2 is of vlipa: the aspect of mastery.=
{mi cire'u ca vlitoi lo jbobau} -- arguably you might want to qualify l= o jbobau more, like {lo jbobau cusku} -- lojbanic expression, more precisel= y being-a-lojbanic-expresser.
=A0

lo lojbo i a'isai iiru'ero'e mi troci co cusku lo pamoi pagbu b= e le
dei bau lo lojbo te zu'e lo pu'u cilre zenba i pe'u do ga'u= nai drazu'e
ro da poi selsrera be mi co tergerna se cusku ja cu'u tadji i le dei se jersi lo glico xelfanva be le dei =A0=A0

You kn= ow, you can insert whitespace where-ever you want. Lojban is very amenable = to artistic or poetic text layouts.
I like to recursively indent argume= nts, ala Python indenting,
if I'm not sure about whether I'm speaking correctly. This also ten= ds to make it much easier to read.
Camxes has a mode which looks approxi= mately like that.

'[effort] [weak conscious fear] express-ish tr= y (some first part)'
This is a problem. You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstr= action. This is the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don'= ;t desire an apple, you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This= is known as sumti raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you = will not be sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides.

Your english sentence says "I am going to try to write the first p= art of this in Lojban
so that I can learn better"
. Ignoring the UI, which obviously add = some emotional context, I would translate this as

{pu'o troci =A0=A0=A0 le nu cusku
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 la'e le p= amoi pagbu ku
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 bau lo jbobau kei ku =A0 =A0 tezu'e lo zu'o mi cilre fu lo nu zenbai}

(I am consi= dering the x1 of troci to be implicitly {mi}, from context. Also, I transla= ted 'better' as 'more effective/compelling'. And, I include= d KU terminators for clarity's sake, though none of them are *required*= in this context.)

"[anticipative] try the-event-of
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 express= ing the-referent-of first part
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 in-language: Lojban
=A0 with-goal: =
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 activity:
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 me learni= ng with-method: event-of something more-effective/compelling.
"
[yeah, I'm not happy with that last bit. It does seem workabl= e, though]

I'm aware that a few concepts that you may not un= derstand yet are used in my jbosku. I hope you take the opportunity to inve= stigate these concepts; If not, you would be better served by choosing simp= ler things to translate for now.
=A0
"pe'u do ga'unai drazu'e ro da poi selsrera be mi co tergerna se cusku ja cu'u tadji"
please, you (not above) correctly-act. action: All X which are text-gramm= ar errors committed by me. expression or expressed-by method

Creativ= e use of co!
Are you trying to tanru-ize a modal ({cu'u})?
That's bizarre, ho= nestly. And camxes doesn't like it, as well it shouldn't.
ah, re= ferring to your=A0 english, you mean either simply style {tadji}, or expres= sive style {cusku tadji}.
Well, I have chosen to focus on grammar / word choice problems.

Pers= onally, for 'please correct my errors', I might say
{pe'u ko= ciksi lo mi se srera}. There is probably no need to be more specific. But,= if I wanted to, I could say
{pe'u ko ciksi lo mi tadji ja gerna se srera}
Which, IMO, is as spec= ific as realistically needed:
"[please] [imperative-you] explain my= (method or grammar)-ish errors"

You could also explicitly fill= the x1 place of srera, if you wanted to be more explicit, like this:
{pe'u ko ciksi lo tadji ja gerna se srera be mi}
which makes the end= of the sentence read more like
"(method or grammar)-ish errors co= mmitted by me"

ni'o mi puza tcidu lo se casnu po'u lo jai ta'i cmene lo djecmi= be lo

"[new topic.] I [a bit earlier] read a= -discussion-topic"
'a discussion topic' probably doesn'= t mean what you intend. A discussion topic is not something you can read. Y= ou can read a discussion *about* a topic.
You might mean {lo nu casnu ..}

{jai ta'i cmene} looks like gibb= erish, but I admit I find {jai} a bit difficult to think about.
I don= 9;t understand what follows it, but I'm much more sure that it's so= mething bizarre:

{lo djecmi be lo jefveldetri}
"day-ish member of week-ish calen= dar"
Are you trying to talk about a discussion which is named accor= ding to a day within a week?
Looking at the english, I see you are tryin= g to say
"a discussion about how to express the days of the week"

.= .maybe 'a discussion about how to name the days of the week' is mor= e accurate.

Which I would write as
{lo nu casnu le du'u tadji= lo nu te cmene fe lo djedi poi le jefyveldetri ku se cmima}

NOTES:
* jefveldetri is bad lujvo morphology -- fv is not a valid cl= uster, they must be separated by 'y'
* you could probably collap= se it further to 'a discussion about names of days of the week'
{lo nu casnu lo cmene be lo djedi poi le jefyveldetri ku se cmima}

<= br>

jefveldetri i ta'o xu lo bi'u jai ta'i cmene mo'u se
kampytugni=A0i=A0ta'onai=A0ja'ebo mi na crici lo du'u lo ni mi = djuno fi lo

"BTW, [question] some [new inform= ation] by unspecified method, named-thing"
ah, something, which by = some method is named.
Good Lojban!
Sit, Lojban!
Stay!
;)

If you are going to do s= omething like 'kampytugni', the lowest-scoring lujvo is preferred:<= br>
kaurtu'i

(the r is a 'hyphen' character. without = it, the kau is grammatically ambiguous and will detach)

wait, reading that all, you are talking about a
[by-unspecified-met= hod] named-ish [ended]common-ish-side-being-agreed-with.

Reading the= English text doesn't help. I'll leave comprehending this particula= r cizbri to someone else.

=A0

lojbo ke temci se cusku cu banzu i lo di'e cu so'ore'u preti i = li'o

{i ta'onai ja'ebo mi na crici lo = du'u lo ni mi djuno fi lo lojbo ke temci se cusku cu banzu}
causes a= parse error.
At the very least, ja'ebo needs to be immediately next to i to do what = you seem to intend.
(not 100% on that, so seek verification)

Let = me guess:

"therefore [returning to main point] I don't-cric= i (xlavla -- you mean 'krici' - believe) the-preposition an-amount-= of [my knowing something-[lojbanic- [time-expressions]]=A0 is necessary&quo= t;
Well, I get the gist. I don't really understand why you would stick {ni= } in there, unless distinguishing an amount of your knowing from an event o= f your knowing is important. To me, the latter makes more sense.

mi'e la volcpitar =A0 =A0 =A0

u'isai xu do= me la velosiraptr

.i uacu'i lu vofli cipni tarci li'u
.i= ma smuni lu cipni tarci li'u

(hmm, is 'the flying bird star= ' an existing name of a real star? Either way, what a 'bird-ish sta= r' might look like is an interesting puzzle.)
=A0

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum, although this is my third time trying to learn
Lojban. =A0I am going to try to write the first part of this in Lojban
so that I can learn better. =A0Please correct any mistakes in grammar or style.

I was reading a discussion about how to express the days of the week
(By the way has there been any consensus yet about how to name them?),
and this led me to realize that there were still many things I did not
understand about time expressions. =A0Below are some questions I have:

1. Do ba'o and pu'o imply "shortly after" and "short= ly before" or "any
time after" and "any time before"?=A0

A= FAICS they don't imply anything. But people usually seem to assume &quo= t;ca" as the reference point if not given, though AFAIK this is not fo= rmally correct. shortly before vs any time before is entirely dependent on = what ZI you are using. If you are not using a ZI, no time distance is impli= ed (although I'll be surprised if people don't generally assume zi = or za rather than zu).

In general, things are not implied in Lojban. It has what I like to cal= l 'well-defined ambiguousness' which makes it much easier to guess = these aspects from context.

2. =A0Can "ZA" tag points in time? =A0If so, do these points indi= cate the
reference for the distance expressed by "ZA"? =A0I read something= on a
"checkpoint" or "proposed checkpoint" that seemed to sa= y something
different.

I'm a bit puzzled about this, so I = will just say what I know -- selma'o ZA doesn't exist. do you mean = ZI or ZAhO? The former specifies time distance in a general, vague subjecti= ve sense.
The latter specifies time 'position-on-a-scale'.
If by 'refe= rence' you mean 'reference point', AFAIK that is done via PU.
=A0

3. Where does it say that the meaning of MOI can go beyond expressions
of time and include such meanings as " mi moi =3D "mine"?=A0= =A0

It says that?
Well, it does here: = http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Numeric+selbri

I thought if you wanted to use mi in a selbri related to 'mine'= , you would more typically say something using {me}.
Loosely:
{le ger= ku ku me mi} -- that dog is something to do with me

In the linked bp= fk page, you find a tighter form which does use mi moi:

{ta me mi moi} -- 'that's mine'.
Not sure where else it&= #39;s explained. mine-th ordinality makes sense to me, except in that it ma= y not cover a single slot -- many things amongst a single ordering may be m= ine.

=A0

mi'e kampu