On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmai= l.com> wrote:

No. Similar sounds, not the same. Pronounce {er} in lojban like {er}, with = the "e" sound in "let". A syllabic "r" is pro= nounced with a short "schwa" sound- the sound .ybu makes. That= 9;s why syllabic "r" and {er} sound similar.

All Lojban vowels are always pronounced the same way they are in the Ro= mance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, Latin....), or, I recently learn= ed, the same way they are pronounced in Japanese (which is the same as the = Romance languages).

On Fri, Au= g 26, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

fair enough. =A0So, basically I need to start pronouncing {er} in lojban li= ke a=A0syllabic=A0"r", correct?

I always felt = like I was "doing it wrong" when I pronounced lojban "er&quo= t; like I=A0pronounce=A0it in english as in "runner", "drink= er", etc... because I thought there should be a sound for {e} instead = of it just sounding like you need to drop the "e" and make the &q= uot;r" syllabic. =A0

blech, it still sounds wrong. =A0To me, the "er&qu= ot; in "runner" has zero "e" like in "let" so= und and that just feels wrong. =A0Right now it feels like I'm being tol= d "when you see 'er' drop the 'e'" and that just = sounds so wrong.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at= 3:49 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

The problem with that statement is that you're assuming that "lr&q= uot; would always be pronounced like "ler". This isn't the ca= se. In the nonexistent {lrfu}, it sounds like {lerfu} because the "r&q= uot; is syllabic. A syllabic "r" is basically the same sound as &= quot;er" because it is pronounced with a short .ybu in front, {yr}, ki= nd of like the "ir" in "fir (tree)". That doesn't m= ean when {lr} occurs it is always pronounced like that: in {cilre}, for ins= tance, it is not a syllabic r - {cilre} isn't pronounced "sheel-e-= re", it's pronounced "sheel-re".

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at= 1:11 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

But it IS possible to have "lr" occur in a word and if "lr&q= uot; sounds identical to "ler" then lojban loses audio-visual=A0i= somorphism.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:

I don't= see how that's a problem. I can't imagine a scenario in which &quo= t;lrfu" would occur, let alone one in which it could be confused with = {lerfu}.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at= 12:47 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
If that&= #39;s the case than the lojban "lerfu" and "lrfu" sound= indistinguishable to me regardless of whether the r is trilled tapped or w= hathaveyou

On Aug 26, 2011 2:44 PM, "Jonathan Jon= es" <eyeonus= @gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, well, I'd = have to hear you say it, because I pronounce "pear", "pair&q= uot;,
> and "pare" the same: {peir}.
>
> Regardless, I&= #39;m pretty sure that your pronunciation of {lerfu} is incorrect,
> = because the "er" in {lerfu} should sound like the "er" = in payer".
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
>> Ok, but at the same time, {ei} is described = as like the "ay" in "pay" which
>> is definitely NOT how I pronounce {lerfu}. Maybe "air" = is a bad example. I
>> say {lerfu} such that the {er} part rymes = with "pear" and NOT "payer"
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:>>
>>> The Lojban sound-cluster that sounds like the En= glish "air" is {eir}, not

>>> {er}. .ebu is pronounced as the "e" in "b*e*tt*= e*r", ""w*e*t", "p*e*st",
>>> etc= . The pronunciation example the CLL uses is "l*e*t"<http://dag.github.com/cl= l/2/2/>,

>>> "What is Lojban?" lists the pronunciation in IPA as = "e [E] ([e]): a front
>>> mid vowel" <http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonapp.html>= ;,
>>> "Lojban for Beginners" uses the example "g*e*t&= quot;<http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopou= djis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less1.html#less1vowels>,
>>> and the English pronunciation guide uses the examples "b*= e*t, l*e*ns"<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Pronunciation+= guide+in+English>

>>> .
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:1= 6 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>&g= t; Is it? I thought the {er} in {lerfu} is supposed to be pronounced like<= br> >>>> english "air" (but with the r being trilled or t= apped or whatever). I think
>>>> if I heard someone in lojb= an say {lrfu} as though it rymed with "smurf-u" I
>>>= > would laugh my zargu off. It's just so english-y sounding.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jonat= han Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My po= int is that the "er" in "better" is pronounced comparab= ly to the
>>>>> "er" in "lerfu".
>>>&g= t;>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Alex Rozen= shteyn <
>>>>> rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I pronounce it as {betr} o= r if I'm enunciating as {betyr}
>>>>>>
>>= >>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you pronounce t= he English word better as "betteir"?
>>>>>>&= gt;
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Viral = Lamb <jms1992@c= omcast.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While tryi= ng to get back into learning lojban, I came across
>>>>>&= gt;>> something
>>>>>>>> I thought was rat= her important. When saying the word "lerfu" (which
>>>>>>>> means letter I think) I noticed that it so= unds like I'm saying
>>>>>>>> "leirfu&q= uot; (even though that isn't a word xD ).
>>>>>>&g= t;>
>>>>>>>> I pronounce the letter "r" in lo= jban the same way I would in english,
>>>>>>>> a= nd I found that's the root of the problem. When pronouncing the "e= "
>>>>>>>> and "r" together, I can't he= lp but say it like "leirfu". Using a
>>>>>>&= gt;> "trilled r" such as in spanish or esperanto, the "e&= quot; sound doesn't
>>>>>>>> turn into a "ei" sound.
>&= gt;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there an= y other way to pronounce the "r" in lojban, cuz I think I
>>>>>>>> can trill my "r"s most of the ti= me, but I'm certainly not perfect.
>>>>>>>> = Trying to say "hamstron" the way the guy in this video says it (1= :15)
>>>>>>>> is certainly a challenge, yet good for pra= ctice.
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DINCr1bV8kGk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is thi= s a big problem, or am I making too big a fuss?
>>>>>>= >>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>= >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
>>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.=
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email= to
>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
&= gt;>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>= ;>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>&g= t;>>> --
>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys= .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai = ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>&= gt;>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>= ;>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this mes= sage because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>&g= t; Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>&g= t;>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>&g= t;>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com.
>>>>>>> For more options, visit this= group at
>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>= ;>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>= ;>>>>> Alex R
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners&= quot; group.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email = to l= ojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from = this group, send email to
>>>>>> lojban-begi= nners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>&= gt;>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?= hl=3Den.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>= ;>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
= >>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Y= ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>&g= t;>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@goog= legroups.com.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, s= end email to
>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m.
>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>= ;>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginner= s?hl=3Den.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>= ;>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
>>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>= ;>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>&= gt;> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>= ;>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= ?hl=3Den.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>&g= t;>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.= e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are = subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners"= ; group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@= googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> = lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>&= gt; For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You rece= ived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this gr= oup, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubs= cribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
&g= t;> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://= groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .= aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your f= ather. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To pos= t to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne= rs+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this g= roup at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den<= /a>.
>

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=

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.=

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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=

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.=

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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=

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=

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'uca= i ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come t= o the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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