Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QyODG-0003qg-VW; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:49 -0700 Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15sf11588505gyc.16 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EOq4Lwv0+fxjKI4s2oH3nKOVCQ3FzHlb0SG/Vbisyc4=; b=WYIrs2HvT8j+V1WHAuw0v2xKgRPWU36YSj/CdPKxWSX70RnRrmaYygzaloobjlcLWI PyFGQ8hbz4u2PbliqXFKkJtA9Z7M3tfKB+t5Nle9bsNk/bvMJbL6AvfPZW3/hMzTd0ef XLLWC5K3aDCyq+5uW8iP4Y2rV6zmiyWwrBY80= Received: by 10.150.178.5 with SMTP id a5mr1014411ybf.12.1314710316074; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.233.7 with SMTP id f7ls14740562anh.7.gmail; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.86.12 with SMTP id o12mr1206915anl.16.1314710313583; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.86.12 with SMTP id o12mr1206911anl.16.1314710313510; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f175.google.com (mail-gy0-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q30si1130731ybn.2.2011.08.30.06.18.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.175; Received: by mail-gy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 4so6709087gyg.34 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.180.1 with SMTP id i1mr32521873yhm.3.1314710304119; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.109.163 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:18:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <41f3563c-23b4-4c7b-96fc-8b5fcd11033a@z1g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <144c6f02-30c0-4257-88ab-5f2951c2fa48@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> <2fe2465c-df10-499c-9698-3eb60d4bc1a3@m35g2000prl.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:18:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban "r" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf305e21bba8d98204abb8d837 Content-Length: 9781 --20cf305e21bba8d98204abb8d837 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 When you said "lrfu" and "lerfu" are the same for you, you're effectively saying that either "lrfu" has an arbitrary "e" inserted OR you're saying that "lerfu" drops the "e". Either way, it's discomfiting. On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > No. There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that makes no > sound. There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", "bite". > > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb wrote: > >> you pronounce "er" like the "er" in "better"? That means your using a >> silent 'e'? >> >> On Aug 29, 6:01 pm, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> > I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I pronounce {eir} like in "*air*". >> The >> > two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's problem with thinking it >> > sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er} like that. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb >> wrote: >> > > Uh, not being able to tell the difference between the 'e' and 'ei' >> > > sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential for >> > > misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close enough", this >> > > goes very much against one of the founding principles of the language, >> > > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all the different cmene, lujvo, >> > > and fu'ivla you could create, I see lots of room for this problem to >> > > crop up. >> > >> > > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem pronouncing "er" >> > > and "eir" differently, its everyone from what I can see. I've yet to >> > > see how anyone "could" pronounce them differently. If anyone would >> > > like to prove me wrong I'm all ears. >> > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "Lojban Beginners" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > >> > -- >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> > >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf305e21bba8d98204abb8d837 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When you said "lrfu" and "lerfu" are the same for you, = you're effectively saying that either "lrfu" has an arbitrary= "e" inserted OR you're saying that "lerfu" drops t= he "e". =A0Either way, it's discomfiting.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmai= l.com> wrote:
No. There is no silent e in "better". A silent e is one that make= s no sound. There is a silent e in "Euclid", "hate", &q= uot;bite".


On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Viral Lamb <jms1992@comcast.net&g= t; wrote:
you pronounce "er" like the "= er" in "better"? That means your using a
silent 'e'?

On Aug 29, 6:01=A0pm, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I pronounce {er} like in "bett*er*". I pronounce {eir} like = in "*air*". The
> two do not sound alike, and I don't have Luke's problem w= ith thinking it
> sounds too "Englishy" to pronounce {er} like that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Viral Lamb <jms1...@comcast.net> w= rote:
> > Uh, not being able to tell the difference between the 'e'= and 'ei'
> > sound because of the letter 'r' does have the potential f= or
> > misunderstandings. This isn't just a "oh well its close = enough", this
> > goes very much against one of the founding principles of the lang= uage,
> > audiovisual isomorphism. Considering all the different cmene, luj= vo,
> > and fu'ivla you could create, I see lots of room for this pro= blem to
> > crop up.
>
> > And no, its not just "some people" who have a problem p= ronouncing "er"
> > and "eir" differently, its everyone from what I can see= . I've yet to
> > see how anyone "could" pronounce them differently. If a= nyone would
> > like to prove me wrong I'm all ears.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&#= 39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--20cf305e21bba8d98204abb8d837--