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From: "gleki.is...@gmail.com" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: bridi and jufra
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On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 12:03:39=E2=80=AFPM UTC+2 marcb...@gmail.com=
 wrote:

I still do not understand the difference between bridi and jufra;=20
if I understand that bridi relates to propositions and jufra to sentences;=
=20
I understand that a proposition is always a sentence but a sentence is not=
=20
always a proposition; since interrogative, exhortative, desiderative and=20
exclamative utterances cannot be propositions, since they cannto be=20
affirmated or negated.=20

Am I right? Am I wrong?

So, were I right, the exercise: "Don't panic" should be only a jufra and=20
not a jufra and a bridi.


First, the word {jufra} is not used a lot in the reference grammar.

https://la-lojban.github.io/uncll/romoi/xhtml_no_chunks/

Some of the examples from there:

zoi .kuot. Socrates is mortal .kuot. cu glico jufra
The-text =E2=80=9C Socrates is mortal =E2=80=9D   is-an-English sentence.

Thus {jufra} refers to the text, to the surface form of the language.
As for {bridi} is refers to the relation e.g.
"x1 panics because of x2" can be a possible relation in English.

"Don't panic" is a text.
That you panic is a relation.
To this bridi-relation you apply illocution power (a command) getting=20
"Don't panic!".

There is also {brisni}, which roughly corresponds to what is called=20
"sentence" in the formal grammar in chapter 21:
https://la-lojban.github.io/uncll/romoi/xhtml_section_chunks/chapter-gramma=
rs.html
{ko na xalni} is a sentence, a brisni.
brisni is a again a text, a surface form of the language,

What's the difference between brisni and jufra?
jufra =3D x1 (text) is a sentence/statement about  x2=20
[topic/subject/predicate/focus] in language x3.

As you can see from the example above  "jufra" can be even a=20
statement/sentence not in Lojban. jufra can be very complex like "I know;=
=20
but he knew it was a lie."
As of {brisni} is refers to a rule of the formal Lojban grammar (but might=
=20
be boardly extended to some other languages).

When learning Lojban it's better to settle on the concept of bridi, brisni=
=20
and other formal rules. The concept of jufra is of less importance in=20
Lojban per se.=20

--=20
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<br /><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto">On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 12:03:39=
=E2=80=AFPM UTC+2 marcb...@gmail.com wrote:<br /></div><blockquote style=3D=
"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">I still do not understand the difference between bridi and =
jufra;=C2=A0<div>if I understand that bridi relates to propositions and juf=
ra to sentences; I understand that a proposition is always a sentence but a=
 sentence is not always a proposition; since interrogative, exhortative, de=
siderative and exclamative utterances cannot be propositions, since they ca=
nnto be affirmated or negated. <br /><br />Am I right? Am I wrong?<br /><br=
 />So, were I right, the exercise: "Don't panic" should be only a jufra and=
 not a jufra and a bridi.<br /></div></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>Fir=
st, the word {jufra} is not used a lot in the reference grammar.</div><div>=
<br /></div><div>https://la-lojban.github.io/uncll/romoi/xhtml_no_chunks/</=
div><div><br /></div><div>Some of the examples from there:<br /><br />zoi<s=
pan style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>.kuot.<span style=3D"white-space: p=
re;">	</span>Socrates is mortal<span style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>.k=
uot.<span style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>cu<span style=3D"white-space:=
 pre;">	</span>glico<span style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>jufra<br />Th=
e-text<span style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>=E2=80=9C<span style=3D"whi=
te-space: pre;">	</span>Socrates is mortal<span style=3D"white-space: pre;"=
>	</span>=E2=80=9D<span style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>=C2=A0<span sty=
le=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>is-an-English<span style=3D"white-space: p=
re;">	</span>sentence.<br /><br />Thus {jufra} refers to the text, to the s=
urface form of the language.</div><div>As for {bridi} is refers to the rela=
tion e.g.<br />"x1 panics because of x2" can be a possible relation in Engl=
ish.</div><div><br /></div><div>"Don't panic" is a text.</div><div>That you=
 panic is a relation.</div><div>To this bridi-relation you apply illocution=
 power (a command) getting "Don't panic!".</div><div><br /></div><div>There=
 is also {brisni}, which roughly corresponds to what is called "sentence" i=
n the formal grammar in chapter 21:</div><div>https://la-lojban.github.io/u=
ncll/romoi/xhtml_section_chunks/chapter-grammars.html<br /></div><div>{ko n=
a xalni} is a sentence, a brisni.</div><div>brisni is a again a text, a sur=
face form of the language,</div><div><br /></div><div>What's the difference=
 between brisni and jufra?</div><div>jufra =3D x1 (text) is a sentence/stat=
ement about=C2=A0 x2 [topic/subject/predicate/focus] in language x3.<br /><=
br /></div><div>As you can see from the example above=C2=A0 "jufra" can be =
even a statement/sentence not in Lojban. jufra can be very complex like "I =
know; but he knew it was a lie."</div><div>As of {brisni} is refers to a ru=
le of the formal Lojban grammar (but might be boardly extended to some othe=
r languages).</div><div><br /></div><div>When learning Lojban it's better t=
o settle on the concept of bridi, brisni and other formal rules. The concep=
t of jufra is of less importance in Lojban per se.=C2=A0</div></div>

<p></p>

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